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GrandRC . CanoMod . Futaba-RC

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e-Minicopter Joker > Faster Rolls and Flips.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

Well, Finally I try my new Li Po Batteries in my Joker. I am very happy with the time I got from them. I did not force them. And I flew 8 minutes and at that point my brain is ready to quit.
My only complain is : how I make this Joker to roll and flip as my Raptor 50 and my Mill. Ross do you have the secret ? I have the long flybar, I use the X-Cell white Paddles, I have VBlades 690mm ( I used to have 710mm) they weight 182.7 grs. But the rolls and flips are like when I go to Reno and there is no air and the heli gets so slow...But I am in sea level and it is cold this days. (Great for gas, perhaps not for Electric)
Please help I do not want to make rolls that take 5 minutes to get out of it. It is scary, plus I am not in FAI and they look ugly.
Thanks
Ae
12-15-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Futura SE
Veteran
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas

I use V-paddles as they give the best response I have ever seen. The quickest without ever beibng pitchy at all. Even in fast forward flight. Here is the kicker. You opend a can of worms and this is the ONLY flaw I see in theJoker and it bugs the fire out of me. You have to run yor CCPM mix at 60-65% an NO more or when you go to full pitch either positive or negetive the link with the delrin bushing on the elevator servo will over extend out of the mainshaft bearing block guide. When it does it will bind the elevator servo and you are dead. 100% guaranteed crash. You can run a 100% mix on ailerons and get a 100% throw ont he swash for left and right. The thing has a blinding roll rate and SO much cyclic you can not handle it. Have to run like 70% expo. The problem is you still have to run the 65% mix on elevator to stop the over run of the bushing in the guide. As you know nothing is worse than having a heli that the cyclic rate fore-aft and left-right are totally different. It makes 3D impossible for anyone. Piro flips and all can not be done as those are simply timing moves and the heli is tent ime more powerful on left-right cyclic than fore-aft. This CAN NOT be changed on a Joker without Gerd doing some redesigning. The thing is they are 3D'ing the thing over in Europe and doing it well. The key is gettnig the head speed up and running the longer flybar. 690's should be good to go. A head speed of 1750 should be plenty. Running some more pitch can help too. You should have 11 degrees of pitch with 690's and Lipos. It can pull it. I run 700's and 11 degrees and just manage the collective and use full only for short bursts.
I think a long flybar, v-paddles and plenty of pitch will give you all you want. I used to could not get a straight line roll in fast forward flight. I would loose altitude with 32 nicads. A lipo Joker acts like it dropped 10 lbs. The weight reduction is the biggest benefit of lipos. I don't even care about the flight time. The weight savings is the benefit. The problem is the Joker is not going to fly like your Millenium ESPECIALLY if it has a OS/YS 91 in it. I know I a Robbe Rep and fly Robbe with a YS 91. The Joker is good, but even with Lipos it isn't a YS 91 with a MP II and 30%.

Scooter Ross
Robbe-Schluter Field Rep.
Minicopter Factory Rep.
12-15-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

Thanks for your Input. I have the long fly bar, let me check the pitch and and increase the RPM 150 more. I do not want to have different ATV in the elevator and aileron. For me the Mill is the one that does the best rolls, X-cell the best loops. I fly them with 61YS and I am happy with the power.
Ae
12-15-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Ben74
Senior Heliman
Location: Long Beach, CA

paddles and flybars have nothing to do with your roll/flip rate. they affect how quickly the heli responds to your cyclic inputs, but they do not affect the actual roll rate. to get faster rolls/flips, you have to increase your swashplate AFRs. turn them up until there is a little binding at full deflection, then back it down a little. take off your blades and spin the head by hand to feel for binding at full deflection. long servo arms will help you get big deflections. using a cyclic ring will allow you to turn up your AFRs so that you have binding in the corners, but no binding at 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees. then the cyclic ring keeps you out of the corners where the swashplate binds.
12-15-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

Ben: Have you done it with the Joker? And how far can you go with the numbers. Right now I have Ali-Elv & Pitch at 80% And I have Swash Plate mixing at 140.
I am taking Ross side, because my other Helis roll faster with the White X-Cell paddles, We can be wrong, but that is why we have this post. To exchange point of view. Thanks for your information, I will try to see how my heli reacts. And I have the circle in my cyclings.
Thanks again
Ae
12-16-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Ben74
Senior Heliman
Location: Long Beach, CA

i don't have a joker, but the principle applies to all helis. if you think about it, you'll realize paddles and flybars cannot affect roll rate. what makes the heli roll? the pitch of the blades. do lighter paddles or longer flybars increase the pitch on your blades in a roll? no. more swashplate deflection will increase the pitch on your blades in a roll, and that will result in a faster roll rate.
12-16-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Futura SE
Veteran
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas

Ben,
You can NOT do what you describe with the Joker. The things you talk abouit are all 100% true, but you do not know the trap you run into with a Joker without having one. Read my previous just a before this to see what I am talking about. The Joker has some design quirks that prevent doing what you say. If it were not for that, then yes you ar right.

If you think paddles and flybars don't affect roll rate then you have never flown a helicopter. I don't know any other way to put it then that. Go put some 50 gram paddles on and then go fly with some 15 gram paddles and come back and tell me that again. Run the SAME amount of pitch and flybar deflection. I understand all the reasons how the weight affects the rotor head. Light paddles give a quick roll rate. Heavy give a slow. Just that simple. Why do we use flybar weights to quicken/retard the roll rate then??? You are the laws of physics to retard and quicken the rotor head. Heavy paddles make doing a flip take a long time. Quick ones make it happen fast. Explain to me how that doen't affect flying. You can say the blades do it or whatever, but running the same blades, same headspeed and just different paddles makes a WORLD of difference in how thing thing flies.

Scooter Ross
12-16-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Ben74
Senior Heliman
Location: Long Beach, CA

that's too bad that the joker can't be adjusted like that.

lighter paddles and longer flybars increase the acceleration of the heli to it's max roll rate, but it does not affect the "top speed" of your rolls. they make the heli feel more nimble and twitchy since they speed up the response rate of the cyclic. you may be able to complete a single roll quicker than you could with heavier paddles since the acceleration is quicker, but if you were to do consecutive rolls, the number of rolls per minute you can do will not be affected by paddle weight. it's a simple matter of physics. if you think through how the whole head works from stick input to roll, you'll see that the paddles cannot affect the roll rate (in rpm).
12-16-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

Scooter: I did order the V Paddles. Ron from Ricks will send you the bill if my Joker doesn't roll faster.
Yes, in Europe they do 3D with the Joker, but it is different than the USA 3D. In my opinion is convination of FAI/3D. I saw someone from Norway and rolls aren't as fast as we do it here. Sometimes the Europian style looks more like they have control if you know what I mean.
Finally, If I want to increase the RPM. Which of the three screws I have to increase. I do have the Trottle curve as you told me while ago. Normal 0 with the trim close and it goes to 50%, Idle One is s. Line 70% and Idle two S. Line 100% and I need more RPM. Now is around 1550.
Thanks
Ae
12-18-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Futura SE
Veteran
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas

I have the pot in the governor that controls RPM all the way to to 100%. That will give you a 1750 head speed or maybe a little more. The European style is more a combo of FAI and 3D. I like it better myself. I like the american style, but most american pilots are just stick bangers and the Europenas are known more for being smooth. I like a combo of both. This is what makes Curtis so good. He is both. None of the pilots like Jason Krause and others do things like rolling circles in their 3D routines. not that they can't, but everything now is soemthing to do with a piro. I get SO tired of seeing that. Do the chaos and other things ,but I sure would like to see guys incorporate things like rolling circles backwards and etc in a 3D routine. A rolling circle is as hard or even more so than any piro. move ever has been. I just would ilke to see less of the "buck wild" style and more of a "controlled 3D" for lack of a better word.

Scooter Ross
12-18-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

Scooter. what is the letter, that I have to open to 100% ? N , I or P.
Thanks,
Alvaro
12-19-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Futura SE
Veteran
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas

Alvaro,
12-19-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Futura SE
Veteran
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas

Doh I always post a messeage before I am ready to.

Alvaro,
With Al's setup it would allow you to run a 100% mix both fore/aft and left/right on the cyclics. Then you would have to go back to the short flybar and even then you wouldn't need a 100% mix. More like a 90%. You would have more cyclic authority then you knew what to do with. This would make the Joker flip and tumble like a banshee.

Al,
I am VERY interested in what you are going to do. Yes, you are right in that the swash is not locked in place snugly and do wobble due to the current design. By getting rid of the bushing on the elevator servo it will lock the swash in place better and allow you to get full travel of the swash everyone wants.

Scooter Ross
12-19-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

Mmmm Are you sure it will work? I do not want to do it and sudenly the Joker destroy itself in the air. I have seen so many things that people do, but If you have time to do a 3rd one Al I would like to try.
Well, No, Let Scooter and You try it, and in a week you let me know. If it work or Gerd is sending a new Joker from Germany Or Joe feel sorry and sell it to you with a good discount.
How Much it will be. Are you going to include instructions with it.
Alvaro
12-20-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

I also have the new Joker with the new swashplate, I can go 75% travel in the three servos, but I do not get fast rolls or flips, I tried the V Paddles today and they were slower than the white Paddles from Miniature. Well, I have to learn how to do slow roll, because the ones in my Joker look ugly, the Heli drops 5'-10' when is inverted.
The Raptor and Mill. because it get out so fast, they don't drop and I do not have to move pitch too much. It will be differnet with the Joker.
I do get 10.5 negative and around 11 positive Pitch in my Joker. (I think is plenty) I do not know what else to do. Perhaps to buy the Ion from minuature that will be available next year. Go to Jason Krauser web page and see that baby rollign and flipping.
Thanks Al for your help . You mention Gerd 3D swashplate I did not understand that. There is a new swashplate ?
12-22-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Futura SE
Veteran
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas

Al,
My swash must be a little different from yours then. I can get full deflection on the elevator servo without it hitting the case. barely, but I can.
Actually a lot of cyclic is not needed for a chaos and piro moves. Hard piros moves will not be possible due to you will have a new can of worms to cap back off then like stiffer dampening. I have a special set of dampners on mine right now that make it a lot siffer then stock. 3D's much better and boom strikes would only happen at full negetive and full up elevator like sometimes. Full negetive and full up elevator will boom strike most ALL machines and not to mention full pitch and full cyclic any direction will bog a motor/engine like a big dog. That will bog a YS 91. I know I have one I use full negetive a lot, but I only use a small amount of cyclic than aas it is all that is needed. Once again we come back full circle to collective management. If you go full pitch and full cyclic than you would be pulling like a monster amount of amps. E-mail me direct and we can discuss it futher.

Alvaro,
There are different swashes out there. I am not sure how many. I know of 3.

Scooter Ross
12-22-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

Yes Al the same one The triangular shaped one. And now Scotter is making me to think about my rolls with Electrics Helis.
12-22-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Qrrambero
Veteran
Location: San Francisco / Bay Area

Thanks for your help to all of you.
Today was a great day here in San Francisco Bay area, Sunny and no wind.
I took the Joker for a fly and I did what you advise and that baby rocked, No more scary moments. I did fly it for 8 minutes, it could have gone several more minutes, but I am happy with 8 minutes. My brain was ready tu quit at that point. And I do not want to happen to my what a friend onces said. Why did you crash? his answer was: a mental fart.
Thanks again. and those Lipos rock.
Ae
01-04-2004 Over year old.
 
 
heliraptor
Key Veteran
Location: Colchester, Essex, UK

Hi Qrrambero

So whats the secret getting the Joker to fly so well. I assume after reading the thread you are commenting on its flip / roll rate??

Please share

Lee
03-30-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

Lee:

Too late!
http://runryder.com/helicopter/t86529p1/

Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
03-30-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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