RunRyder - Terrorism??

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UAV Autonomous Unmanned Aerial Vehicles > Terrorism??

nipps85
Heliman
Location: gurnee illinois

Are you (suppliers) concerned about issues with terrorists using your UAV's. We had somebody get arrested for supplying UAV parts to Pakistan.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news...ws-drone04.html

I'd like to hear your position on this and cases like it.

12-04-2003 Over year old.

joey.furr
Senior Heliman
Location: Little Rock, AR

Plus...if someone was going to use an UAV for terrorism...would they not choose something a bit less complex than a robotic helicopter?

12-04-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Obsessive
Key Veteran
Location: 41.73N 71.41W

How are you to deal with the AMA's new safety rules for 2004, prohibiting both autonomous flight and piloting by any means other than visual ground to vehicle?

I would think this would put a real damper on things, and it's too bad. I've remotely flown to 19,000 feet myself...

12-04-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Allora
Senior Heliman
Location: North East, NJ

Quote
How are you to deal with the AMA's new safety rules for 2004, prohibiting both autonomous flight and piloting by any means other than visual ground to vehicle?

Does that render the Co-pilot illegal to use and still conform with the AMA?

12-04-2003 Over year old.

Allora
Senior Heliman
Location: North East, NJ

Quote
The vast majority of UAV activity won't be at your local RC airfield - and AMA rules only apply at AMA certified fields

**see previous comment on co-pilot

12-04-2003 Over year old.

Obsessive
Key Veteran
Location: 41.73N 71.41W

Obviously government-funded research will go on, but the "vast majority" of people on this board who are interested in this topic will be flying at AMA sanctioned field...so let's not be elusive about it. And, knowing what MIT is up to, they fly AT an AMA field.

To initiate an answer allora's question, the code says:

"A model aircraft is defined as a non-human-carrying device capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere not exceeding the limitations in this Code, exclusively for recreation, sport, and/or competition activities. The operators of radio control modle aircraft shal control the aircraft from the ground and maintain unenhanced visual contract with the aircraft throughout the entire flight operation. No aircraft shall be equipped with devices that would allow for autonomous flight"

12-04-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

vaportrail
Senior Heliman
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

Not sure but I think the CoPilot is OK because it is only a stabilizing device. It does not navigate. Plus it is always assumed that the pilot is visually guiding the heli. Only a tail rotor gyro is allowed in competition, but the CoPilot is legal because of its limits.

chuck

The real point of terrorism is not the act itself, but our reaction to the act.

12-04-2003 Over year old.

MooneyDriver
Veteran
Location: Kent, Ohio

TAM

The AMA rules are simply there to mitigate their insurance liability for sanctioned fields and events.

What about the trans-Atlantic flight? It was encouraged and supported by AMA members, and documented in their journal. Nowhere in the AMA article did it discourage us from participating in autonomous flight. In fact the mere presence of the article encourages it in my opinion.

-Neil

.

Hey man, why does my lipo get bigger every time I charge it?

12-04-2003 Over year old.

autopilot
Heliman
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Mooney Driver asked about TAM -- not only did the AMA write about it in the current issue of their magazine, the president of the AMA was one of their pilots who landed the aircraft in Europe.

Hypocritical? Sure, although they were not operating at an AMA sanctioned field...

12-05-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Obsessive

Such systems are not capable of flight in their own right so could not be classed as autonomous.
If they could, then it could be argued so are PCM Rx's.

They are what I would term a "Pilot Aid".
I mentioned this elsewhere and will cover it again.

PAL Rotor has been using a CV3 monicle system which would allow you IMV, to claim that you are operating and maintaining visual contact with the aircraft at all times, as the regs specifiy, the CV3 is merely an aid used by one eye to improve control.

Having a pair of glasses over both eyes however (Eyetreck) would put you clearly outside the regulations as you would not be able to claim you where maintaning visual contact fo the craft from the ground.

Rgds

12-05-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Similar to here where MAAA has no relationship to RPV(Helicams) / UAV and that is the domain of CASA the air safety regulator.

I would have imagined that the AMA has nothing to do with RPV or UAV and that these commercial applications would simply bound by the FAA alone.

12-05-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Obsessive
Key Veteran
Location: 41.73N 71.41W

Dave,

Thanks for that...

Curious though, "unenhanced" visual contact. If you let the "overly sensitive" produce an opinion on that, they'd say you can't wear sunglasses..

I agree that it's purely an insurance disclaimer, at this time. But, as time goes on, I'm sure it will move out of the realm of insurance and into actual statutory law. This is a U.S. applicable thing, of course

The foreseeable problem I have with the "new rule" is if you are one of these hobbyists at an AMA field....and God forbid there is a simple accident...what happens other than a claim denial....Would it be used by AMA to shut a club field down? That is something that is going through our club now....though I will say my suspicion is it's a planker ploy about being anti-heli.

12-05-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Quote
If you let the "overly sensitive" produce an opinion on that

Those opinions come from club fliers not UAV operators.

I think perhaps some are mistaken in the beleif that UAV is relative to clubs and club fliers and their insurance when in fact club fliers have no realationship to UAV at all appart from the physical similarites of aircraft used.

UAV are not amatuer level operations.

12-06-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

For those of you who are questioning whether the TAM transatlantic flight violated the AMA rules, and then state that Dave Brown, Maynard Hill, and the other talented pilots on that team are somehow "hypocrites" for being part of this magnificent achievement while representing the AMA...

READ the article, written by Dave Brown himself, and published in the current issue of Model Aviation. The explanation and rationale are there -- for all to read and understand:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/mag/0104/president.htm

And for those of you who have no idea who Maynard Hill is....do some research. He is an long time pioneer in the model aviation sport, and his name is synonymous with model aviation, records and achievements. He has set model aviation altitude records, endurance records, distance records, and has been involved in aviation research for many, many years. He invented and published research and plans for an electrostatic autopilot over 30 years ago for use in model airplanes -- and was even running experiments using it to stabilize full-scale aircaft). For many years he worked at Jet Propulsion Laboratories. He has been past president of the AMA and has served on the executive council for many, many years.

This man knows his stuff. He is one of the early pioneers and promoters of model aviation. My hat goes off to him and the rest of the TAM team for their accomplishment.

Dave

12-22-2003 Over year old.

dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Note also that the AMA does not "certify" flying sites.

Individual flying sites are scouted out by local flyers, identified by local flyers, and their use is then secured by the local flyers through negotiations with the landowners. It is the effort of the local flyers that obtains and retains flying sites.

The local clubs that usually fly at and operate these individual sites have chosen to become chartered by the AMA. The charter provides the club with a simple and inexpensive means to provide liability insurance for the site owner (property owner) not only for day to day flying activities, but also for special events (sanctioned contests) where the club can apply for additional insurance for specific dates and for specific parties.

These clubs in turn require all flyers to be current AMA members to protect themselves, the individual flyer, and the site owner from financial ruin in the event that there is an incident at the site that involves liability issues.

Without being skilled or knowledgable in the field of liability insurance, the easiest and most sure way to make sure a flyer at a site is insured, is to require current membership in the AMA. ANYONE can simply look at a new flyer's AMA card -- if it's current, he's covered. If he doesn't have a current AMA card, you'll never be able to tell at a glance if the guy has insurance, or not.

This post is not intended to start yet another thread on the pros and cons of AMA, its insurance program, or any of the other issues people seem to have from time to time with the AMA, it is simply to clear up the notion that the "AMA certifies" flying sites. In short, they don't. Local clubs have negotiated with landowners for the use of the land, and in turn, the local clubs simply want to make sure all who fly there have liability insurance. It is the local clubs and the local landowners whose necks are on the line daily for potential accidents. They are the ones who have the vested interest in making sure all flyers are covered.

Dave

12-22-2003 Over year old.

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UAV Autonomous Unmanned Aerial Vehicles > Terrorism??

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