RunRyder - Anyone out there can give me some advice on some legal matters

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Off Topics > Anyone out there can give me some advice on some legal matters

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

Hi everyone,
I'm having some trouble with a local auto shop that had recently did some work to my truck. They had made a mistake and the engine had overheated. The truck is now at another shop getting diagnosed. I am so worried of the local shop not working out this matter with me. Anyhelp or advice please.

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08-12-2003 Over year old.

rob_jones
Key Veteran
Location: Oglethorpe, GA

Did they admit to making a mistake? How do you know they did something wrong?

The first thing I would do is politely ask them to correct the problem. If you go in with guns blazing, they will probably try to fight you. Be civil and open to negotiate a solution.

But don't just insist that they made a mistake and demand they "make it right". Have a plan and be very specific about what they should do to correct the situation. Don't leave it up to the shop to decide the course of action because they will most likely choose whatever is cheapest for them.

-----
Team MRC Hirobo
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

08-12-2003 Over year old.

Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

It's always best to let the original shop sort out there own F**k Up's. (They did give you some sort of "guarantee didn't they). The chances of the original shop paying anyone anything is nil.

First member of Member of Bearings Anonymous

08-12-2003 Over year old.

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

Bimmer,
The service manager personally filled the radiator with over a gallon of antifreeze after the test drive. The mechanic cooling system is fine also says I had bad wiring and maybe need electrical work because guage is now pegged. I talked to the owner/operator to sign off the paper and noting what had happened. I had the service manager test drive the truck as myself as the passenger and concluded that the guage is correct and good. Not to mention this service manager wanted to give me a free oil change on next visit then gives me grieving situation he is in now. I still insisted talking to owner.
I now have oil sedements in my radiator. Visible wetspots around exterior of engine head gasket and valve cover gasket on a rebuild 2month 5000mile engine with possibly a voided warranty.
I have brought back to owner. He looked at the antifreeze and says it's normal and offered another flush. He claims the sediments are from the recycled antifreeze they use and the additive that should help the cooling system. I stated that I don't trust the shop services anymore and will take it to my engine rebuilder to do a diagnostics and look over engine.
I've lost noticeable power driving on highways especially uphill grade and stressing over this.
I haven't gotten the call from engine rebuilders yet and still waiting for outcome. When I get the damaged report/or work order I will present this to the owner personally and ask for the work to be done by the engine rebuilder and pay for car rental.
What do you think Bimmer?

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08-12-2003 Over year old.

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

Doug,
The owner noted that I will bring back for warranty work if any problems but he states it is normal of the situation of the rebuild motor wetspots and dark colored antifreeze.

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08-12-2003 Over year old.

rob_jones
Key Veteran
Location: Oglethorpe, GA

When you say "truck" are we talking about an 18-wheeler, or a "light" truck like a pickup?

I can't imagine any way that it would be normal for coolant to be dark colored. Unless maybe large diesel trucks have some type of additives or different coolant altogether. But I doubt it.

It has always been my understanding that if coolant is a color other than bright green (or sometimes red), you have a problem. Oil in the radiator is most definately NOT normal.

Get a second (impartial) opinion. Get it in writing, then take it to the first shop and kindly suggest they fix it. If he balks, offer to discuss the matter in small claims court. But don't threaten to go to court unless you are actually prepared to do so.

-----
Team MRC Hirobo
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

08-12-2003 Over year old.

Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

Use a test strip to detect combustion products in the coolant and or put a cap with a pressure gauge on it and see if the system pressurizes before the collant gets hot. If either of the above then there is an internal leak. (and a pissing contest not far off either)

First member of Member of Bearings Anonymous

08-12-2003 Over year old.

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

Bimmer,
Its a light truck. It is currently in another shop and its been over 24hrs. I take it they are doing an extensive checks and tests but I'll ask when they are done. Yes, problem when red in antifreeze meaning cracked radiator passage for transmission cooler. The oil deposits in the radiator I will have to possibly say a blown gasket between a passage for cooling system and oil passage. There are no visible smoke out of tailpipe and can't see any chocolate milky in engine oil (they changed oil same day).
I still don't want them to touch the truck and I would like the engine rebuilders fix the problem for me. The owner states that he has done lots of work from the engine shop I mentioned to him.
I honestly think that I'm not prepared to go to court but I will make a lot of noise if he doesn't see it my way. I've got BBB number, still trying to attain a corporate number from this franchise business and I will be contacting a local news station here in Vegas with my story.
This is just really hard for me because I've already paid for the work once and had to rent a car close to 10 days. The truck is my only transportation that is operating and I need it for my commute. I have responsibilities for my kid. Sorry, I didn't mean to let that out on everybody but I'm in a very possible hard situation and it's taking a lot out of me.

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08-12-2003 Over year old.

rob_jones
Key Veteran
Location: Oglethorpe, GA

Let me see if I understand the deal here: The first shop (we'll call him Jim-Bob) rebuilt the engine and now there is foreign fluid in the coolant. Jim-Bob says it's normal and sends you on your not-so-merry way.

Not convinced, you take the truck to a second shop (Billy-Ray) and he is still looking for the problem.

I understand that you don't want to take the truck back to Jim-Bob to fix the problem since he already seems to have screwed it up once already. But if Bill-Ray does find something wrong and can be reasonably certain Jim-Bob is at fault, you may have to. Jim-Bob is certainly not going to pay Bill-Ray to do the repair, Billy-Ray isn't going to do it for free, so if you insist on Bill-Ray fixing it, you will have to pay for the repair. If you can't/won't pay for it, you will have to let Jim-Bob handle it. Perhaps he will be more cautious this time.

You have to look at it like this: The guy probably made an honest mistake. There is also the possibility that he did not cause the problem. Given the chance, most businesses will try to correct any problem they caused, but they are going to want proof first. Threats won't do you any good if you don't have the evidence to back them up.

But if you act in a calm, civil manner and sit down with the guy and explain the situation, chances are you can get it worked out. If he tells you to jump in a lake, invite him to court. Or at the very least, give the BBB a call. I've had to sick them on somebody and it gets results!

-----
Team MRC Hirobo
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

08-12-2003 Over year old.

rob_jones
Key Veteran
Location: Oglethorpe, GA

By the way, I AM NOT A LAWYER. But I ran my own business for 7 years and dealt with plenty of them.

I have had to defuse a few unpleasant situations and I'm basing this advice on those experiences.

I guess I should add the disclaimer that your actual mileage may vary...

-----
Team MRC Hirobo
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

08-12-2003 Over year old.

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

Bimmer,
Sound fair. I know it is an honest mistake. I'm just not confident of his mechanices fixing the repair. I've been very polite with Jimmy ( that is his real name ). And we have been very professional with each other. Jimmy ( 2nd shop that underfilled my radiator, he never rebuild motor, just needed flush & fill radiator ) knows my truck is at the engine rebuilder ( 1st shop that put engine in ) and we are waiting for the outcome. I just can't trust Jimmys mechanics.

Thanks for the advice,
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I do understand that the mileage will vary.

Empty

08-12-2003 Over year old.

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

Doug,
I'm sure that the second shop will do the pressure system test for leak downs. When I do talk to them I will get the details of the test and outcome.

Thanks
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08-12-2003 Over year old.

ESchmidt
Senior Heliman
Location: Salem, NH

Emptyrage

Couple of questions for you.

What kind of truck is it? (Make and model)
What engine is in it?
Why was the flush and fill done in the first place? (discoloration? particles in coolant?)

With the milage on the rebuild, there shouldn't be any reason to flush the cooling system unless the coolant was discolored or contaminated. If this is the case, there may have been a problem with the reman engine to begin with. When the shop flushed the radiator, they may have removed any cooling system sealers that were added to the engine by the rebuilder.

It sounds to me like you may have overheated the engine and either cracked or severely warped the cylinder head. Now, whether this was due to it being low on coolant or not, remains to be seen. It is possible that the thermostat stuck after the coolant flush was done, and caused the engine to overheat. When an engine overheats, it will boil coolant out of the radiator cap....thus leading to a low coolant level.

I've been in the auto repair business for close to 17 years, and I have seen, and made, a lot of mistakes...they do happen... If the shop that did the coolant flush is like any of the shops that I've run or worked in, they should be the ones looking at the problem, and if they did make a mistake, they should own up to it and make it right with you....and repair your truck.

Let me know how this works out for you and if you have any technical questions, or if something someone tells you doesn't make sense to you, feel free to ask.

Eric

08-13-2003 Over year old.

Blackdog
Senior Heliman
Location: In a snow bank.........with no money

BBB

The Better Business Bureau is WORTHLESS. I recently issued a complaint with them (BBB). As long as the person you are issuing the complaint against.......... responds to the complaint........ then they stay in good standing with the BBB. Even if the company's response is a outright lie, they stay in good standing with the BBB.

This is espically true if the company you are issuing the complaint against is a paying member of the BBB.

Ever hear the saying "Worthless, like **** on a bull"......... this is the BBB.

Blackdog

Addicted to Kaos and destin for disaster

08-13-2003 Over year old.

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

Helifreak,
92 Jeep Cherokee
4.0L
Reason why I had it flush was because of the climbing temp of ther radiator on hot days at idle. Especially after a 1hr drive on the freeway. The cooling system was check by dealer1 week prior to this last visit and said everything is normal. The temps I complained about is common this summer. My truck temp had never climbed to temp 230 ever since I've owned the truck but for 1 exception when my waterpump started leaking from its weep hole. The dealer had taken care of that. That is one reason I took it to dealer to do a proper check to cooling system.
Reason why I got the radiator flush. Service writer where I get my oil changes this past year recomended that I should flush it and add there cooling additive that claims to lower my temps up to 20 degrees if I'm lucky. I trust these guys and it would put my mind at ease if this was done too. Oh, I never mentioned that the shop also uses recycled antifreeze.
I am too meticulous about my motor especially after paying almost 3k for the engine and install. I've got a catback exhaust with a flowmaster installed also. The radiator is a new 3 row GDI before the engine work had been done.
I went to this shop because of their professional engine builders and warranty. They had pointed out to me of the sticker at purchase and since I've been running hot I've been watching the temp/engine sticker. They always put new waterpumps and thermostats in their bkocks.
Now I don't understand how it is my fault for the radiator being underfilled and them doing the test drive and tell me I have a short in electrical system causing my guage to be pegged.
I do have a question though. When filling a radiator what are the steps taken until all the air is completely out? I've checked a Chilton manual and Hayes manual for this info. Because in the short time they had done the flush and fill was very quick to me. If I told you I put a second thermostat just to be on the safe side that the other thermostat is bad.
Anyway after the test drive and overheat it was filled to proper level and guage checked out fine by the manager himself. I think they should've let it cool down longer and check the fluid again. Here are more list of precautions/minor parts were taken. CTS on thermostat housing, new belt and temp guage sensor on head. Then taken to the dealership and did overall check which was good. But for my peace of mind while getting my usual oil change I get a flush and fill with a additive claimed to lower my temps by my local shop.
Oh, by the way. I got my truck back from the shop. The head gasket is fine. The black sediments was the cooked sediments or detergent they had added it in there before they took it for a test drive with over a gallon low of fluid. No sign of warpages and leaks. I was told by the owner looks like they ran it without any antifreeze or water and the best thing of all I still have my warranty after the engine reaching to temps of 260 or more ( that is only what my guage reads ). The engine rebuilder owner claims some motors will take a lot of abuse and he said I got lucky. He suggested to get the radiator flushed again and keep any additives out of there.
Thanks for the input guys. Your guys help did make it easier for me to look at the big picture and the outcome of the second shop has put my mind at ease. Especially that my warranty is still in effect.

Thanks,
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08-13-2003 Over year old.

rob_jones
Key Veteran
Location: Oglethorpe, GA

Looks like you got the problem sorted out with a minimum of hassle. Good for you! I was wondering what the eventual outcome would be. Thanks for the update!

FWIW: You can't check the coolant level when the engine is hot. You have to let it cool down first!

-----
Team MRC Hirobo
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

08-13-2003 Over year old.

ESchmidt
Senior Heliman
Location: Salem, NH

The 4.0L Jeep engine can be a real pain in the @ss to get all of the air out of, and the cylinder heads do warp quite easily. They have a couple of coolant ports in the rear of the head that can trap air and hold it there untill the engine is well over operating temp...by then it's usually too late.

If your engine is actually operating at 260 degrees, there is something wrong. 240 is about the highest temp I ever like to see, and that's still too high for my liking.

What I normally do to make sure that all of the air is out of the system is to cut a flush tee into the heater hose that runs right next to the valve cover. Run the engine at idle with the cap on the tee, and the radiator cap off untill I can see the coolant circulating. Raise the engine RPM to 2000 RPM and wait for the coolant level to go down a bit, completely top it off with coolant and put the cap back on the radiator with the engine speed still up. This pressurizes the system to about 7 PSI. With the engine still idleing, crack the tee open...don't open it completely...just crack it enough that you see some coolant and air escaping. Once you've got nothing but coolant coming out, tighten the tee, and make sure that the reservoir is full and you're done.

It sounds to me like the shop that did the flush either had a malfunctioning machine, or a malfunctioning operator.

I'm gald that everything came out ok, and no damage was done.

Just one thing you may want to have someone check...On the 4.0L, IT IS possible to route the serpentine belt incorrectly. When this happens, the water pump and fan will be running backwards. I've seen it happen, and have fixed two or three overheating problems on Jeeps by simply removing the belt and putting it back on correctly....it's more common than you think.

Eric

08-14-2003 Over year old.

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

Eric,
Yeah, I thought of that belt being backwards too but its been running fine. I'll double check that right now. Think I may have a warped head now. I do too but engine rebuilder says everything is fine for now. Now the temp doesn't operate at 260 but I've seen it once a few weeks ago climb to 240. That is when I got worried. I once had that problem 4 or 5 years ago and after the flush and rod out radiator my water pump started to leak at weep hole. Sound like you've worked on many Jeeps.
I do have one of them tee flush and fill kits. I never tried to put it on because I thought it would be another plastic part to fail that I would have to keep and eye on. It's been running fair like 225's slightly higher but not like the 240 a few weeks back. I think it is just the hot weather we had back then.
I have been told to flush the system out again and use no additives in the future. So I will do the job myself and I have myself to blame for. I've had a few cars and radiators i've had to deal with but the Jeep is the most timely one i've worked with. You are right at running the engine at about 2k then topping it off and capping it. I've onced idled it for 45min waiting for the bubbles to disappear. But when the engine cool down it should siphon the antifreeze from the overflow and I can just fill that.
I really just wanted something to bring down the temps and this is the trouble I have to go through. I still think I may have a bad waterpump but It's just not showing any leakages and I am looking at a flowkooler for next year as an upgrade.
This is way off topic on RunRyder but I thank you and everyone who replied back to me. It really helped.

Empty

Oh. If the fan and belt is backwards wouldn't the antifreeze push itself through the overflow bottle at any conditions?

Empty

08-14-2003 Over year old.

Emptyrage
Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, NV.

To add to my previous post. It has never gone past 240 in my possession. Operating temps I've been getting range from 210-225 occasionaly slightly higher.

Empty

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08-14-2003 Over year old.

RobG
Senior Heliman
Location: Duncan BC. Canada

225 is still too hot. the thermostat you have is probably a 195 degree. That is the most comon. As soon as the temp hits 195 the thermostat should open and let cool water into your engine. the temp may climb to 200 or so but it wont stay there for long. In my Camaro I found that when the engine was a bit cooler it ran a bit beter. I changed the thermostat to a 165. The engine would run at 165 consistantly. If I changed it back to 195, it would run at 195. I realize that a smallblock chevy is a bit different but the cooling systems work on the same principals. My 4.3 chevy is the same thing.
I'm not a mechanic but if your running at 225 then something is definetly wrong. It sounds like you have a blockage somewhere.

Rob

08-14-2003 Over year old.

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Off Topics > Anyone out there can give me some advice on some legal matters

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