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Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies

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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Hacker/Logo 10 ESC Failures
 
 
ukmric2
Heliman
Location: England /Midlands

My recently purchased Logo 10 is driving me nuts, I have had 3 x Hacker ESC the Master 40-3p OPTO fail, they either fail and will not arm or my last failed 2 minutes into an Hover with the motor just cutting out.
I am running a Hacker B50-15L with 14 tooth pinion and Sanyo 12 cell 2400mah packs.
Has any one else had any issues with this combo?

My Dealer Skyline Models has been brilliant and just replaced each failed unit and also swapped the motor just in case, but all to no avail as this latest motor/esc failed tonight.

I have noticed very high motor temps even though no canopy has been fitted during any of these flights.

I have asked my dealer to source a Kontroniks 600-18 and Beat 55 speed control to see if I have any more success with this combo.
06-04-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Dr Lodge
Elite Veteran
Location: Guildford, Surrey - UK

Yes, Yes Yes!

I had my ESC fail and did some testing. Symptoms were that at the end of a flight, the ESC just died and wouldn't arm.

So I tried to ensure the Rx was OK by plugging in a servo to channel 3 and it worked fine. I then changed Rx and guess what, the ESC worked!

I then found out that the ESC would only thereafter work with a PPM Rx, not either of the Futaba PCM Rx

here is the reply I got from Hacker, via Danny@slm:

"The LOGO 10 have a few problems with static voltage.
So we have some damaged controllers. There is in the "signal input circuit" a piece wich can be damage by high voltage. So may be this circuit is broken, but not complete! So I think to know that the FUTABA receivers have only about 3,5V output voltage on the signal wires! Most of the other companys have nearly the voltage of the receiver batterie, here around 4,8V.
So this may be here the problem, thta the voltage of the FUTABA is to low for this "semi-broken" part.
We have changed these part into other ones to protect them about the high voltage.
Please send me the esc and we switch it into this new one, no problem!"

They have sent me a new ESC, I wonder if this is now protected from these high voltages? I haven't yet fitted it.

David.
06-05-2003 Over year old.
 
 
estevens
Senior Heliman
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

I had problems with the early 40-3P controller resetting. But since the software has been upgraded (you will hear 5 beeps after the normal 1 or governor 2), I haven't had any problems. I leave mine hanging in the front. Temperature has not been an issue for myself or another Logo pilot flying the hacker controllers. We have both flown on 100 degree days with no thermal problems, unlike some other brands.
In fact my only problem has been due to crash damage, mixing link flipped in the middle of a roll.

Eric in Phoenix
06-05-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MRC
Heliman
Location: Northern California

ESD Killed your ESC!

Your ESC is failing due to ESD Electrical Static Dicharge coming from the tail belt drive system. The rubber tail drive belt is basically a Van De Graff Generator that produces HIGH VOLTAGE static electricity. This discharge of static causes the output transistor in the speed controller to fail/fry! Trust me on this one, I have been through 4 Hacker 40-3P speed controllers before I was able to figure out that ESD was causing my problem. I personally know of several other people that have had the same problem. Read my post on thie Logoheli.com web site about static discharge from the tail belt. It explains my findings in detail. Mikado has admitted that this problem exists, and as a matter of fact if you go to the Schulze website and click on trouble shooting, they explain it very well. Just wish I had that info before I started with this project. Schulze recomends spraying the belt with Graphit 33 spray which is available from RCDIRECT for $10 a can. It puts an electrical conductive coating on the belt which eliminates the build-up of static. I have been flying my Logo 10 with a CC speed controller without any problems. I am awaiting a Schulze Future 18.46K from Icare-rc in Canada ($165) and am going to install it when it arrives. I hope this helps all of you and keeps your frustration level low! Let me know how things work out! Also, the Hacker's do not have a soft start in the programing and start very abruptly thus damaging the heli. If you use the Hacker you need to pre-spin the rotor system before you move the throttle up to prevent stripping the main gear. Get a Schulze 18.46K. they are the best controller available for the Logo 10.
Good Luck
Mike
06-05-2003 Over year old.
 
 
ukmric2
Heliman
Location: England /Midlands

Updated Logo 10 Hacker ESC failure

I visited Skyline again today and returned my third Hacker ESC., that was latest software etc and had failed no arming or motor output.
Thanks to all who have advised of their issues with this combo, I feel the Hacker 40 opto is right on it's limit and this is why 3 of mine have failed.
I have fitted the Schulze 18-46 and wow what a difference.
Motor Hacker 15L with 14 tooth pinion spins much better /start up much smoother and after 8 minutes of hovering/circuits the Schulze is just slightly warm.
Dannny at Skyline has been excellent and in desperation today I went for the Schulze unit and so far after two flights all seems 100%, I have not read the other post to this but I just caught the fact another recommendation for the Schulze.
My thanks to Bob/Danny at Skyline for their excellent customer service throughout my trial and tribulation, I am looking forward to really enjoying my Logo 10 now.
06-05-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Dr Lodge
Elite Veteran
Location: Guildford, Surrey - UK

Did SLM let you replace your Hacker ESC for the Schulze or did you have to shell out more £££s?

David.
06-06-2003 Over year old.
 
 
ukmric2
Heliman
Location: England /Midlands

David,
I will have to pay the difference between Hacker and Schulze but Danny did not know what the difference would be so I am going back Saturday to confirm all OK with Schulze and pay the difference.
Danny did indicate he thought the Schulze was circa £180, I hope it's not as the Schulze web site has this ESC priced at 180 Euros including VAT and I would expect to pay around the £100-£120 for it after conversion.
I have accurately measured all temps using a calibrated digital thermometer and the ESC after 8 minutes hovering at 1450rpm head speed is only at 23 degrees celsius barely warm.
My Hacker 15L is at 55 degrees celsius well within safe temps.

This ESC is very easy to set up using small dill switches and stick positions, it gives an incredibly smooth start up.
My next option will be to run in governor mode and set different headspeeds in Idle up 1 and 2, I Run a JR PCM10x transmitter and the Shulze needs to be connected to a rotary/ or multi position swich to make best use of governor mode, it is movedout of JR channel 1 throttle and fitted to a switched output.
06-06-2003 Over year old.
 
 
GKurt
Heliman
Location: Chicago

Mike speaks the truth, ESD is the culprit.

I'd highly recommend you fix the ESD problem b4 putting another ESC in there.

I had a problem with ESD, which was due, in part, to an unrelated problem causing a huge tail wag. It got two ESC's and a Rx. I emailed Mikado, and after several replys, was told to make sure the belt is tight, get the ESC wires as short as possible, and keep wiring away from the tooth belt pulley. Ralf also advised NOT to use graphite spray, as it degrades the belt and does not work.

In my case, I'm 99% sure the belt was too loose, and the tail wag was causing it to load/unload and slap the inside of the boom, which generates kilovolts of static. Then, when it discharged, it went through the nearby antenna wire.

Not a single glich since applying the Mikado fixes (and fixing the wag).

Another ESC to consider is the Kontronik Beat. Working great here.

Greg
06-12-2003 Over year old.
 
 
ukmric2
Heliman
Location: England /Midlands

Greg,
I was not experiencing any wag or ESD with my original Hacker OPto ESC fitted, my belt was quite tight. My Gyro is a CSM 560 with Jr 8700G tail servo.
Since fitting the Schulze everything is 100%.
I am using the Schulze in governor mode and achieving 7-8 mins flight time on my Hacker B15L with14 tooth pinion Sanyo 12 cell 2400 nicads.
Thanks to mike and all for your advice and help it's very much appreciated.
Martin
06-12-2003 Over year old.
 
 
MRC
Heliman
Location: Northern California

Final Results of Eliminating ESD

Guys,
I flew my Logo today with the Schulze 18.46K, B50-11L, 14 tooth pinion on 12- 3000 Nimh cells. It worked great! No problems or radio hits. The schulze controller is very smooth on start up and both the motor and the controller only were slightly warm during the 8 min flight. I belive that finally I have a heli that is flyable!

Here is what I did to my Logo to get rid of the ESD problem

1 Sprayed tail belt and pulleys with Graphit 33. I removed the belt and pulleys to do this and baked on the graphit 33 with my heat gun.

2 Ran a ground wire from the tail boom to the negative lead of the 12 cell battery. This gives any possible static a path to flow and a place to be absorbed. It would in affect shunt the static around the radio equipment and speed controller and the battery would act as an attentuator thus absorbing the static charge. This protects the speed controller from any possible static discharge damage.

3 Made sure all wires were 1" away from the tail boom

I have a Hitec Electron 6 FM rec and a whip antenna and did not have any interference problems. I wanted to be sure there were no radio issues before I put a PCM rec in it. I will put some time on it before I am sure that it is 100%. The set up on the Schulze 18.46K is 010010 for the DIL switches. I will go to constant rpm mode after a few more glitch/ESD free flights.

Good Luck
Mike
06-13-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Astro30
Senior Heliman
Location: Hawaii

I was curious about ESD, does it normally happen in drier climates?

As you may know it's always on the humid side here in Hi. and I never had any type of problem like this at all, I run a B50 13L w/13t pinion and a Hacker Master 48 3p heli esc which has been absolutely flawless and has a nice and slow+smooth spool up, I guess it's one with the new programs anyway, since I read this thread, I have moved some wires away from the belt pulley as I had some really close to it just for precaution but never had any type of problems at all. My esc runs just warm, maybe 100-110 degrees F and my motor around 130-140 degrees F after a few 6 minute flights on 12 cell RC 2400's with ambient temps of 85-90 F.

Could anyone tell me if this usually is a problem where it is more dry? I am a bit worried about it now, also, it's pretty hard to tell how tight the belt is as there's not too much of the belt exposed to do the pinch test but should it just be pulled pretty much tight as possible?...

Also, another question, how does the esd travel through the plastic frames etc all the way to affect the esc? ... and would putting on a carbon fiber tail boom change anything? Sorry for all the questions but I just wanted to learn a little more about this as I haven't really heard of this until now...
07-29-2003 Over year old.
 
 
gwright
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Fl

in your last post, MRC, you stated a B50 11L with 14 tooth pinion. I think I see the problem now. I would also ask what blades you're running. I used the B50 11L with 12 cells before going to lithiums (now C50 13L with 4S4P lithiums), and the 11L with the short 500mm blades, and a 13 tooth pinion is at it's absolute limit. 100% on the ESC and full 3D, everything is pushed hard, but survives. At an lower percentage ont he speed control, everything gets too hot. If you are not running at 100% (remember ESC's run hotter at lower percentages), and/or you're using blades other than the mikado 500mm glass blades,.. things are gonna get VERY HOT. I have no problems with the ESC mentioned, but I "popped" several of the kontronics before going to the schulze, then the hacker,.. so it's sort of the reverse of what's being said here. I spent a lot of time initially with the logo 10, testing motors, gears, blades, etc, and the 11L, 13 tooth pinion, 500mm mikado glass blades, and 12 cells, at 100% on the ESC was the setup I arrived at. Changing anything, i.e. going up one tooth in pinion (did that), going up to 515 blades (did that), running at 80% throttle ,..all would overheat things. that particular motor is NOT recommended by mikado or hacker, but with everything exactly as stated above, it works well and gave me the best performance (tremendous power, pushing things hard), but change one single thing, and you upset the applecart.
07-29-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
estevens
Senior Heliman
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

I have had no ESD problems with my Hacker controller here in Phoenix. I consider my area to be extreme between the dry climate and high temperatures. The other local pilots using the hacker controller have also no had any problems. One of the pilots has tried the schulze controller in the past, but had problems with it popping.
Now my Ergo is a different story, I had to install a ground jumper on the tail boom as it suffered from glitching. After eliminating everything else, I finally decided to ground the boom (belt drive = good static generator) and my problems went away.
As to spool up of the rotor head, that is a throttle curve issue in the radio. A gentle curve up to the 50% point before going all out works great.

Eric in Phoenix

B50-11L, Hacker 48-3P
Logo 10, 13 tooth pinon, 12 cells
07-29-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Saint728
Elite Veteran
Location: Sydney Australia Sponsored by: Quick UK

I have a Logo 10 with a HackerB50-11L and a Hacker Master 48-3P Opto speed controller. I fly it with a 13 tooth pinion and 12 2400 NC batteries. I've never had any problems with my speed controller burning out. It's really dry here in Australia and the temperatures are kind of warm too. The only problem I'm having is when I hover my Logo it shakes all over the place, but when the training under carrage is off and someone else flys it, it doesn't shake at all. I think it shakes because it doesn't like to be flown at a low RPM? Maybe I'm running too hot of a motor to learn with? It has massive head speed and the climb rate is huge. The motor and ESC run slighly warm, you can hold them right after flying. It doesn't have any problems with ESD. My tail belt is kind of tight.

Astro30, where in Hawaii do you fly? I usually live in Hawaii (Hawaii Kai) but I've visiting a friend in Australia and will be here for some time. I've seen people flying helicopters in Kailua at the R/C air field near the dump, is that where you fly at?

Thank You,
Cheers, Patrick
08-29-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Astro30
Senior Heliman
Location: Hawaii

I replied to your email Saint...

Eolo Pro--Hacker C40 12t--Kontronik Jazz 40-6-12--GY 401--9253
08-29-2003 Over year old.
 
 
raytor
Senior Heliman
Location: Southern US

I'm reviving this old post about ESD from the tail drive belt on LOGO's - Apparently these same Germans in my prev post have found a solution - get rid of the plastic - Check this link:

http://www.modellbau-liste.de/Shop/
Click on Logo-Tuningteile
then Alu-Tuning

The copy says that when used together, these two items will reduce the likelyhood of ESD from the tail rotor:
Item 1 Alu-Heckrotorgehäuse
and
Item 4 Alu-Riemenrad
- it makes that entire tail assembly drive gear/boom/tail housing all metal. Might work. A bunch of other aluminum parts might help too.
10-18-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RC-Hawk
Senior Heliman
Location: Westminster Colorado

Logo Static issues

A friend of mine has a logo 10 with a hacker motor.
Holding this thing over my head (grabbing the frame) there was a considerable amount of static produced from the tail drive.

The fix for his....

Hawk sport Tail boom
Raptor drive belt

Work fine... last long time...
No more static.
11-24-2003 Over year old.
 
 
funheli
Heliman
Location: Northern Calif

CNC Parts for Logo 10

My original idea about the ESD was to the fact of the materials used. Some materials when rubbed with other materials exhibit far more electron (i.e. static) production than other materials.
The Logo 10 parts are made from the same polymer material. I am pretty sure the polymer used on the belt and the tail pulley gears are what is causing the problem. The tail pulley gear meshing with the belt and the belt meshing with the drive pulley...the polymer rubbing against polymer....is what's producing the static. By spraying the graphite and attaching a path to lowest reistance to neutralize the static (election) buildup only hinders the amount of eletron production and does not stop it...it's going around the problem and not solving the problem.

If we mix different materials so that it's not polymer "rubbing" with polymer...it will fix the problem and make it so that eletrons are not that easily produced, in some sense. I asked a few vendors to fabricate CNC Al-alloy upgrades such as the metal tail pulley/output shaft, etc that the Raptor uses for the Logo 10. All metal. Also, we can have the drive pulley that meshes with the main gear metal as well. I think we can get rid of the stock belt since that ploymer material is what's causing the static build up. The raptor does not have this problem...since it uses a different type of polymer. Even with the stock pulley gears...it's a different plastic. I think the belt is Bando brand or something like that?

So the suggested material contacting is:

main gear (polymer) -> pulley drive gear (metal) -> tail belt (polymer) -> tail gear pully(metal).

No where is there a polymer rubbing a polymer. This will solve the static buildup.
Even if there is some chance of buildup (unlikely), the metal CNC parts will distribute some of the electrons and though time, during flight...the will "float away" through the surface area of the metal and will not build up as much as just the polymer based ones in the stock parts.

The only problem is...there are not many vendors out there that makes CNC upgrades for the Logo 10. Some of the metal parts can be really optimized for stress relief...reducing weight, yet providing the material strength needed as an upgrade part. Even the upgrade parts of from Mikado is the same stock polymer, but with BB. Interesting...about ball park prices as a regular metal part?

Hopefully, the vendors will get to speed and realize that the Logo 10 is starting to come out of the underground and start having aftermarket goodies.
11-26-2003 Over year old.
 
 
raytor
Senior Heliman
Location: Southern US

funheli:
Quote 
Hopefully, the vendors will get to speed


Check the link in my post earlier - those parts already exist - Takes about 10 days to ship to US - price is reasonable and they take personal checks.

Hope it helps.
Good Luck
11-26-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Hacker/Logo 10 ESC Failures
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