RunRyder - G-23 carb question, 603, or 643??

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > G-23 carb question, 603, or 643??

rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

test

Is the signature working?

-=>Raja.

1005 Xcell Gas, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
Spectra-g, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator

06-06-2003 Over year old.

Al Magaloff
rrMaster
Location: 12,199 Posts- Enough Time Wasted. See Ya!

Anyone using a conventional starter on a gasser?

06-06-2003 Over year old.

SteveH
rrProfessor
Location: Texas

Al,

A fellow here in San Antonio had his Vario set up to work with a conventional electric starter. "Turbinesrule" is the one, so give him a PM and I'm shure he'll tell you all about it.

SteveH

06-06-2003 Over year old.

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Raja,

Thanks for the feedback! It sounds like a winner!

I have my 9ZAP back finally so I'm hoping to spin up the X-cell again!

Oh, as to the starter... one of the nice things about the pull start is that I can go flying with much less equipment to carry... no starter, battery, extra wires associated with such, etc.

It seems a lot nicer to do it this way than to use a starter IMHO. Some may like a starter, I suppose you can try one, it would be easy to put a starter adapter on the top of the clutch shaft. However, you may need a BIG starter to be able to handle the compression of the G-23. I'm not sure how it compares to the current .61 to .91 engines.

---
Rich

06-06-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

I thought I'd ask WalBro what they know about these carbs. I specifically asked about the Zenoah G230PUH (non-modified engine).

This is their response:

The carburetors you asked about are listed below with what they are built with.
WA-167A: 11.11 Venturi, .50mm 1st idle hole, .50mm 2nd Idle, .50 3rd Idle
No choke assembly or primer. Idle needle set at 1 5/8 turns open, Power Needle @ 1 1/8 turns open

WT-603: 12.7mm Venturi., 15.85mm Thr. Bore .50mm 1st idle hole, .50mm 2nd idle, .55mm 3rd idle
Primer Assy and Choke Assy included. Idle needle set at 1 1/2 turns open, Power Needle @ 1 1/4 t.o.

WT-643: 12.7mm Venturi, 15.85mm Thr. Bore. .50mm 1st idle, .50mm 2nd idle, .55mm 3rd idle.
Primer Assy but no choke assy. Both needles preset at 1 3/8 turns open.

WT-644: 12.7mm Venturi, 15.85mm Thr. Bore. .50mm 1st idle, .50mm 2nd idle, .55mm 3rd idle.
Primer Assy. and Choke Assy. Idle needle preset at 1 5/8 t.o., Power set at 1 turn open.

WT-645: 12.7mm Venturi, 14.3mm Thr. Bore. .50mm 1st idle, .50mm 2nd idle, .55 3rd idle.
Choke Assy but no Primer. Both Needles preset at 1 3/8 turns open.

Rich, Since all of these carburetors were specifically calibrated and released for trimmers or blowers we don't have the expertise to recommend a specific one for your application. I can tell you that the WT-645 will improve acceleration and mid-range because of the slightly smaller throttle bore. But the top end shouldn't see any difference.
As for an air cleaner, I strongly recommend you always have one on. As for the oil soaked type, you will see some restriction because of the decrease in clean air flow. What you'll see is a richness in the overall performance

Because they show the 167 as with 'no primer bulb', I may have listed the wrong sub-model of the 167 as I know I do have the primber bulb!

It sounds like they are saying the 645 would be the way to go, although I don't know how they think the slightly smaller accelleration and midrange will be with a smaller throttle bore. However, they list the 645 as not having a primer bulb. I'll recheck to see if this is not an error.

What do you all think? Otherwise the 603 is pretty much the same as the others, so I wonder why the new part numbers?

Rich

---
Rich

06-09-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

More from Walbro, answers to some questions of mine and corrections to the previous message!

1. The WA-167A does have a primer assy added onto the metering side of the carburetor.

2. The WT-645 does not have a primer assy but I did see in our system where it inadvertently showed the primer. I've corrected that so you won't see it after we update the site. Thanks on that one.

3. Yes, each of our choke assemblies have a detent in the choke shaft that is activated by a spring loaded steel ball. So it will remain in either the closed or part-closed position.

4. The WT-603 and WT-644 are pretty close but there are differences, such as the choke assy and throttle shaft assy. Also, each carburetor was calibrated for difference engines of Komatsu Zenoah. As for the web site, you caught another one. I just informed our IT department and they will be going through all of these before it's updated again.

5. If the air filter assy restricts too much of the clean air flow, then the entire calibration of the carburetor will be on the rich side. We see this richness situation in weedtrimmer and backpack blower applications. Again, I cannot say you'll see the same affects with your plane (he meant heli, but may not know the difference). Since you see an immediate change in altitude maybe you see the richness that much sooner, I don't know. It sounds however, like you already know what your looking for here.

---
Rich

06-09-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Yes.. or the 644 if one wants the built in choke. This could be a nice version to use if one was to use a different filter (or not filter) than the oil-foam one shipped by Zenoah.

Oh, I though I was having trouble adjusting my idle mixture. I couldn't get my tail to stop jumping around in a hover! The engine was misfiring.

I removed my foam filter and realized I had too much oil on it as I had just cleaned and re-oiled it.

While I was at the flying field I simply took a paper towel and squeezed it tightly with the towel over and over until no more oil was blotted onto the paper. The next flight and my tail jumping and engine misfiring was solved! So these oil/foam filters can affect things more than one would expect! Keep an eye on them!

---
Rich

06-09-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

Some minor news. I'm not sure what it means.

I visited Miniature Aircraft in person yesterday. I held in my hand one of the 'beta' G231PUH engines. The carb on it say WT603.

Perhaps they changed to the 643 later. But the one that MA tested said 603 on it. Oh, the one they had did have a built in choke plate.

It may be that the housing will say 603 and the 643 was just an option pack.

---
Rich

06-26-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Im Rich,

I'm not surprized Imrich...Don't let that worry you...It is custom of Zenoah to use whats available at the time from their vendor Walbro, so long as it meets the speck

Both carbs are very good..Like I have said before, you want waste your money on either one....The 643 seem to be a tad smoother in hover, but both allowed the engine to produce good power..
Regards,
Bill

06-27-2003 Over year old.

AerialEye
Heliman
Location: Leeds UK

Chris pointed out the most important aspect about carb differences between G230PUH and G231PUH - namely that the 231 has improved internal porting. The raison d'etre for the 231 was to introduce the 4 port transfers and thus improve the internal mixture flow. This was spawned from the success of the RC230 engine used in Varios and the racing cars. Having improved the internal flow efficiency it is pretty logical to allow more mixture into the engine through an improved carb - hence the larger venturi diameter. If you put a large diameter venturi on an inefficient engine like the 230 you will see poor flow characteristics at low revs - it becomes gutless. This is because the venturi is not maintaining a good fuel/air mix for the flow rate. Using the same logic, the guy from Walbro was completely correct in his statement that putting a smaller venturi carb on the more efficient 231 would improve bottom end grunt (acceleration torque etc). It would be the top end breathing which would be effected because of the increased flowrate resistance effectively throttling the engine.
Restrictions in the venturi cross section area also point to the disadvantage of running the carb with the integrated choke. Even when fully open, the choke shaft/butterfly represents an obstruction to clean free flow.
It's also interesting that nobody has twigged the need for a different carb for the 26cc conversion. There's a potential 10% increase in the pumped airflow but no upgraded carb. Looking back on what we've said about the 230/231 and venturi diameters, it is safe to assume that the low- and middle range torque are improved by retaining the 231 carb BUT just think of the untapped power you boys are losing at the top end. :->

Hope this is interesting.

DD

06-28-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

BIGRCR
Veteran
Location: Easley, South Carolina

My new X-Cell Gas Graphite SE has the new G-231 and has the 643 carb on it. I now have 1 1/2 gallon through the motor and it is REALLY strong even though I still have it rich and am running 38:1 fuel. It is taking a lot of will power to keep from putting it through it's paces as the motor is begging to be turned loose. I am just starting to load it a LITTLE more each day. It already has more performance than my trust old YS ST2 in a Fury and is nearing my YS 80 powered bird.

I have no trouble starting this engine with my Hobbico 90 starter and the Pro-Flex starter. I will have a longer start shaft made for my clutch at the first sign of failure though (the clutch shaft does not engage the one way very deeply and can break the one way bearing).

I do not oil the foam element in the box type air filter that comes with the G-231. I don't want the oil to change my mixtures, maybe I'm wrong. I will be removing the ol'e snuff box and adding a velocity stack as soon as my buddy finishes turning me one!

BTW- IMrich, the motor you held at Miniature Aircraft must have been a newly aquired unit from Zenoah, they have been waiting for a shipment. I have one of the original "testing" motors of Tim Schoonard's, and it is the one I am reffering to with the 643 (part #T2077-81000) carb on it.

The G-231 is a winner!

Later,

BIGRCR- John Garst

06-28-2003 Over year old.

ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

bigrcr,

I was talking with Bob, he said it was one of the beta engines that they tested.

It had a number scratched in the side, I forget which number though.

It also has a 603 carb on it, which had it's own choke plate.

But the black plastic foam air cleaner was screwed on it also, but this did not have a choke slider on it.

I'm just curious if MinAir tested the first G231PUHs with the 603 carb, and now they are being delivered with the 643 carb (as you have).

It's not important at all, nor a concern, just interesting!

If I can get someone to buy my G230PUH and I can get the new engine, without spending too much money. I may do it!

I have two or three people asking about it now. But I hadn't seriously thought about it until they asked!

Bob told me the 'new' gasser will be released this fall, so maybe I should save my money!

Rich

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Rich

06-28-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > G-23 carb question, 603, or 643??

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