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Boca Bearings . Modefo's RC Helicopters . XHELI.COM

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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Turbine's
 
 
ROTAX
Heliman
Location: Belmont N.H.1

I just saw my first ever turbine video clip!! I'm amazed at the technology Somehow someway I must see one fly first hand. I saw the graupner in the new rotory. $5000 I'm assuming like everything else, The price will drp somewhat in a couple of years and if so, I promise tou all I WILL own one of these technological jewels.
Where to get more videos?
Tim
02-22-2002 Over year old.
 
 
omurru
Veteran
Location: Australia

Quote 
I'm assuming like everything else, The price will drp somewhat in a couple of years and if so


Yeah probally down to somewhere round $4999.95

Turbines are expensive things and yes ya can get cheaper ones but as ya spend less the worse ya get, i'd have to say the more ya spen on a turbine the better ya get. But then the other thing to think about is the aircraft is probally gonna cost that again and the radio equiptment and other "junk" will probally be getting close to that again, was in a hobby shop today and was talking about them and a guy here has built a few of his own and they aren't big ones or anything and his cost 12000USD each!
02-22-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
2000se
Senior Heliman
Location: Charlotte, NC

not only that but..

what happens if you have a mishap and..ummmm CRASH!!!
02-22-2002 Over year old.
 
 
RCopter
Heliman
Location: Tampa, FL

Video

Rotax, where did you find the video at? was it a website?
02-22-2002 Over year old.
 
 
ed vega
Key Veteran
Location: nyc, queens

just saw the video , and was very pleased to see it fly .. it's so cool ..

it was very cool with it's ecu and pumps. with sophia, amt, jetcat, simjet etc.. who's got the best motor?.

it appears that keeping price down when something new arrives is nearly impossible or hard enough. unfortunatlely do to manufacturing costs or greed the cost keep going way up on the high end for heli's.

my take on it is if most folks who are into this hobby need new developments for the modest pockets not deep pockets.

If only jet motors would trickle down to the average end scenarios at a reasonable rate.

point is , you can develop it and try to sell it, but who cares to own one if it's out of reach for the average budget minded flyer.

if it's for only the elite few then it's all said and done, pretty much forgotten about in short order for most. something to read about. like any other new product that doesn't gain mass popularity due to manufacturing costs.
02-22-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

I would not agree with that. $6000 gets you the turbine Jet NH-90 with retracts, turbine power set specialized stainless steel scale exhaust ejectors, 40 degree tail gear box, Main rotor blades GRP, and Tail rotor blades. I am pretty sure these have electric on board starters and rotor breaks. They include the ECU and everything else needed to fly it. The jets you see at places like Florida jets all cost $5000 and up. Its not unusual for them to be well over $15,000. So a $6000 heli that is both turbine and scale is a good deal. I still am not going to buy one any time soon but I think you get a lot for your money. Its a better deal than spending $2300 on a sport heli kit (caliber etc.). You can't just hack out a turbine on your smithy 3 in 1.
02-22-2002 Over year old.
 
 
JCadwell
Key Veteran
Location: Richland WA/ Morro Bay, CA

The other factor to include is limited availabilty. All the turbine helis I have seen have really nice frames that look like they are jig welded tube frames that are then powercoated. A plastic framed turbine heli might be an invitation to melt down. The cost might come down with the economics of mass production, but how many turbine helis flyers are there? The price gets you into an elite group of what I would consider more or less handbuilt machines. A big engined sport chopper might be able to outperform it, but would you trade a lotus for a Viper? The turbine helis all look like works of art...

Thanks, John Cadwell
02-23-2002 Over year old.
 
 
ed vega
Key Veteran
Location: nyc, queens

 semiarticulate, jet aircraft and heli's costs shouldn't be compared together.. jets aircraft will always be on the high end .. especially the twin engine larger versions ...

now you know you normally get all the jet equipment, ecu, pumps, starters and the rest for the price of the engine kit for 3K . where did the other 3k come from .. the nh90 fuse($500) retracts($500) and cost of the heli without motor 2K?..

what elite group? the jetheli is at the beggining , open to all . you put the money down it's yours , what is the exclusivity about high end $ r/c heli's? .. maybe for crop dusting, or aireal photography ..

I have no doubt how well it's made as graupner always made great heli's .. the configuration has merit .. maybe for crop dusting like the yamaha ..

I'll wait for alittle longer before I get one . other manufacturers to follow suit ..

02-23-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

"jets aircraft will always be on the high end .. especially the twin engine larger versions ... "

A jet aircraft is just a composite plank. There is no need for them to have anything attached to the turbo shaft. They are more basic than a turbine heli. I was not comparing the twins. I'll need your source of the $3000 turbine so I can see if we are comparing apples to apples. I don't know of any $3000 turbine with an electric start and they also require all the support equipment. AMT does not make an on board electric start that I know of. I don't know about the others, but AMT is a hobby for its owner. He does not care if he makes a profit or not and will drop the turbines price to the point where he loses money. Especially if one of the other manufactures ticks him off. So its a good time to be in turbines because the prices are already very low. If AMT got out for any reason, the prices would shoot up again.

"I have no doubt how well it's made as graupner always made great heli's .. the configuration has merit .. maybe for crop dusting like the yamaha .. "

The people who want these turbines are usually into serious scale. They want the look, smell, and sound of a real heli only at a scale size. Since you get about 8 minutes on a tank, I don't think you'll see them crop dusting.

Lets assume you can get the whole turbine with electronics and onboard start for $3000. Where does the other $3000 come from? Well a Caliber 60 costs $2300 and its not even scale. It looks like a $1400 dollar kit. The Jetcat mechanics look very well made and have all the shiny bits. You are also paying for a good bit of R&D. You could wait for TT to copy the design and sell it for less. The prices will come down a little. The first version of the JetCat system cost over $15,000. It would be nice if these companies would use the price we think is right. I'd like to get my R30 for $25 dollars and a Fury and Freya for $100. Heck, make it $5 across the board.
02-23-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Taipan
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, Australia

Crazy coincidence

I was looking at a lawn mower catalogue & thinking how cheap they are. Well, compared to heli engines. If there were as many helis as mowers, they would be much cheaper. Right?
02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

Or you could just turn the lawn mower upside down and fly it! It will all get cheaper but I don't think they are taking advantage of us. We are not forced to by them.
02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
ed vega
Key Veteran
Location: nyc, queens

on to other systems. looks like ramjet 500 has better prices with autostart .

heres a quote from the helijet folks. http://www.helijet.ca/

" If you wanted to buy a microturbine in 1994, it would have cost you around $5000 U.S. An engine producing the same amount of thrust with state of the art electronics in a package ½ the size and weight now costs less than $2200 U.S. Advances in design, materials and production have driven down the cost to much more affordable levels. Will the cost go down even further? Possibly, but unlikely to fall much past the $1500 U.S. mark. Although the labor to build one ( roughly 5 – 7 hours for a skilled technician ) is not significant, other areas do not offer such flexibility. Material costs along with the machinery to produce the parts are not cheap. Research, development and acquisition of high-tech equipment to produce critical components do not come cheap either. "

<<%>>

take a look at this other jet heli 1200 hcp by simjet, it's not released yet, but still uses the graupner , schluter style mainframe and servo platform. I like the way the exhaust deflectors go around the gearbox .. and look at that tranny. this system looks much more universal and not so manufacturer specific.

I would opt for the engine and transmission systems alone and configure my own gasser style stepped frames in this case . this drive will work on almost any heli .. like to know the price on the drive system.
[BREAK]


02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Dyehard
Veteran
Location: Cedar Bluff, Va.

Ed, just at a guess, since the picture doesn't have enough detail, I'd say the heli in the picture uses a blown turbine or fan to drive the rotorhead instead of a gearbox. If a gearbox were used, I would think it would be on the compressor side of the engine, not the exhaust.
02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Phil Cole
Veteran
Location: Redwood City CA

If they do have a power turbine separate from the compressor turbine, then a rear-exit shaft is easier. To get a front exit would require coaxial shafts, necessitating a redesign of the gas producer section. There is another design coming out 'real soon now' from a Swiss guy which runs the drive shaft forward along the outside of the casing after the reduction at the back.

Simjet appear to have replaced the usual jet nozzle on their 12 lb thrust engine with a diffuser and another turbine. They may or may not have a second set of guide vanes - it's possible the compressor turbine is designed to not completely straighten the flow. I think the Wren shaft jet also takes a similar approach.

The Jetcat PHT3 is a single shaft turbine, so they simply needed to extend the shaft at one end. Obviously, this is easier to do at the cold end. The choice of belts or gears is a personal one, both can work equally well. All they had to do is design the turbine to extract as much
power as possible (with reasonable EGT) and attempt to dump the exhaust gas with as little thrust as possible.

Read Schrekling's book "Turbo Prop Engine for Home Construction" if you want to know more.
02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Todd
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

Some of you have a real distorted view of this hobby.Turbines will never cost what a Raptor costs. Manufactureres are designing these turbines for and elite few, not the masses. When I say elite, I mean just like the man said, serious scalers or people that just like to tinker with a turbine. And for the person that says the jets are just a planker with a turbine, you are seriously mistaken, these aircraft put up with some seroiud forces that your trainer doesnt. BVM models are seriously engineered, with the latest in technowledgy to put up a 250 mph run and take a 30lb. mobel and go virtical till you cant see it. The turbine market as far as jets go is going crazy, its the latest and greatest, its growing so fast. Just remember that this is a hobby with lots of small niches, the ones that complain about paying a $1000.00 for a Raptor, to the guys that happily spend $15,000 on a jet plane. The manufacturers in my mind are doing amazing things, because in the end these are toys, serious toys, but toys.
02-24-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ed vega
Key Veteran
Location: nyc, queens

jet heli's are here , it's a revolution!




02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
JCadwell
Key Veteran
Location: Richland WA/ Morro Bay, CA

The power connection in that airframe is via a secondary free spinning turbine, and is not directly connected to the power turbine. Perhaps like the compresser side of a turbocharger creating rotation.

Thanks, John Cadwell
02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
ed vega
Key Veteran
Location: nyc, queens

the gear box looks more like a gear reduction of sorts. no mention on it's gearbox reduction ratios . another concept that has merits .. if it's a turbine blower or geared , it's gearbox very interesting .. which indicates alot of delivery to the drive shaft .. revolutionary
02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SemiArticulate
Veteran
Location: On Location

JCadwell is right Ed, thats an old system and very inefficient. You would not want to fly that unless you just love doing autos more than flying. The flight time is not very good. The Jets you are talking about are RAM airplane Jets not heli jets. Also HeliJet does not sell jet helis, they sell helis and jets. Jetcat's jet engine is setup for use on a helicopter. The heli is powered by the output shaft much like a real heli. Its not some plank jet blowing on a fan.

Look at this:



Idle RPM 33K RPM
Max RPM 85K RPM
Main rotor RPM 1260 RPM
Tail rotor RPM 5880 RPM
Torque 28Nm
Shaft power 3kW = 4PS (electronically limited)
Weight / Engine & mechanism 6 lb
Fuel consumption 2-6 fl oz/min

That is worth money. Now look at your picture, not worth the money.
02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

Any aerodynamic device that extracts energy from a fluid flow is by definition a "turbine" The most efficient way to extract energy from a gas turbine is to use the "gas turbine" as a gas generator and use the exhaust to drive a "free turbine" this is how all modern gas turbine engines operate. Some earlier designs used direct drive from the "N1" shaft. The problem is that the pressure ratio of the Small scale single stage radial compressors is less than 3 to one and the weight and added complexity of the required turbine and reduction gearing is more than offset by the simplicity of driving directly from the N1 additionally the small amount of HP that is required compared to what is available in the exhaust gas (over 20 HP can be extracted with a properly designed "low pressure turbine". the heli only needs about 5 HP. KIS rules
02-24-2002 Over year old.
 
 
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