RunRyder - Ion X II Belt Failures

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e-Miniature Aircraft Furion - Razor - Ion-X > Ion X II Belt Failures

Phil.L
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia

Hi Everyone,

3 of us at the club have just gotten our ionX II going. this weekend 3 belts failed on 3 different helis.

Has this happened before? We are running 560 kv outrunners on 10-12s 5000mah with the 11.45 ratio.

Belt tention was done up good. Dont really like the idea of pre loading the motor bearings that much.

maybe its a bad batch of belts, who knows, but at $20 a pop here and risking a heli each time.....hmm

whats everyone elses experience with the belt setup?

cheers

http://www.rotortips.net/ OutRage Batteries G5

08-18-2008 03:00 AM

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cgbole
Veteran
Location: tulsa ok

Hi, what size pulley do you have on the motor... Stanc on here had some problems with his razor at first because he was running too small a pulley on the motor... not sure if it's related or not tho...
chuck

Magnito Chuck...
Frickin' Align
E Synergy Flybarless
E Trex 700

08-18-2008 04:52 AM

ATR
Heliman
Location: sweden

belt

In ourer club we have flown quite much ionX2 lately. The thing is not a have to much tension, it should flex a little when you push it from the side in the mittle. BUT, that 3 of them have broke, seams odd, are these kits ordered lately there may be a production problem..
About power, my flying buddy flew his with 15S...An there was some raw power..

Fulltime helinut!!

08-18-2008 07:08 AM

Phil.L
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia

How many flights have they had ATR?

we had 3 slightly different belt tentions also, one was really tight, my one was on the looser side of things, and the other was in between.

2 of the helis came from the same batch.

running 19tooth pinion pulley, and 28tooth driven, so they should be plently big enough i would have thought.

Would like to get the specs of these belt and their design life per rated rpm. Would be interesting to see.

http://www.rotortips.net/ OutRage Batteries G5

08-18-2008 08:43 AM

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stanc
Veteran
Location: Conroe, TX

I run 12S in my X2 and have never had a problem with the belt. The Toothy Pitch is 3mm HTD, sdp-si.com is where I get mine. The belts should be good for something like 50K rpm, if my memory is correct. Here is the web site .pdf on the belts.

Stan
2 x Ion X2
eStartus
eAvro90
Performance Plus Lipo Packs

08-18-2008 01:32 PM

Phil.L
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia

thanks mate, interesting info. Will look further into it.

http://www.rotortips.net/ OutRage Batteries G5

08-19-2008 02:57 AM

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Phil.L
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia

Where abouts did you see that they are rated to 50 000 rpm? Seems excessivly high, any idea what the safe working life is for the belt at that rpm and kw transfer?

http://www.rotortips.net/ OutRage Batteries G5

08-19-2008 11:45 AM

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Heliguychris
Senior Heliman
Location: Perth, West Australia

Hi Phil. How did they go/fail? Wasnt clean snaps of the belt in flight i hope

Or is it chopping of the teeth sorta thing?

08-19-2008 11:58 AM

stanc
Veteran
Location: Conroe, TX

Phil
It has been a year or so since these belts were talked about on rcg and it was someone there, who I can't mention here on RR, that had found out the particulars about the belts. If you think about a 32-3 @ 555kV on 12S, that is almost 25K, maybe it was 30K he said they were good for. The belts on a Turbine turn a lot higher than that and they are even smaller tooth pitch and width.
The belts that came apart in my Razor were shredding the inside off of the outside of the belt, is this what happened or did your break?

Stan
2 x Ion X2
eStartus
eAvro90
Performance Plus Lipo Packs

08-20-2008 04:08 AM

Phil.L
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia

having 3 fail on 3 different helis, we have to find out the reason for it. It could be simply a bad batch, assembly fault, design fault, or the Ion x IIs are simply not designed to run some serious high power setups.

We have eliminated assembly fault posibly a bad batch,
Done some research today, being a mech engineer myself, if I got some proper specs of the belts I could do some calcs.
We spoke to 2 engineers that specialize in belts. They said these belts that MA are using are already the best out there. However, they said the belts are rated only for 1.15kw max and 14 000 rpm, anything much over that, will delaminate and fail rapidly.

We looked into the posibility of doubling up the belts, or using one with bigger tooth pitch, and they said its the high rpm we are doing which is destroying the belts.

We are running on average 3-3.5 kw, with peaks over 5kw minus some losses from the motor and speedy. The motors are doing about 24000 rpm, with rapid alterating torque changes.

Yes our belts are shredding the teeth from the inside, but looking more carefuly at the belt, its actualy delaminating, and once that starts the teeth are torn off.

The reason we got the Ion X2 helis was on the thought that they are able to handle the high power as we saw Bobby Watts Ion X 2 go at an aussie funfly, which was absolutely off the hook to say the least!

I have no doubt that these belts will hold up for soft-mild 3d, couple flips/ rolls at say 1950 headspeed, but were they ever designed to thrown around like say for example Bobby Watts Stratus / new 90 ??

Any thoughts?

Alexs Ion

http://www.rotortips.net/ OutRage Batteries G5

08-20-2008 05:34 AM

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Peterr
Senior Heliman
Location: Queensland Australia

No remedy , but I had a brand new belt do the same ,in a Razor , after about 3 mins of mild 3d , that's all I can do !!!

The origional belt lasted 18 months , replaced it , replaced it again , and its going OK again .. well , it's lasted 10 flights so far....

Peter ,,3X spectra G's ,, 4 X Stratus , Extreme,, 2 X E Razor, N Razor..

08-20-2008 07:09 AM

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Phil.L
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia

hey Peter,

good to hear from ya,

interesting, Alex had about 10 flights before his went.

http://www.rotortips.net/ OutRage Batteries G5

08-20-2008 09:37 AM

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bathmagic
Senior Heliman
Location: Berwick,Victoria, Australia

belts

Phil

I saw this happening on the razor, but not this bad.

Im sure with the great "lack" of support from MA it will get resolved !

lol.lol

Tell me how that trex 700 "E" conversion is coming along ?

Dale

3DMP , Vbar 600 "Innovation" The key to success !

08-20-2008 12:29 PM

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Heliguychris
Senior Heliman
Location: Perth, West Australia

5 Killowatts! You guys are mad!

So what nitro content do i have to use to get that from my SZ-H?

08-20-2008 12:54 PM

Chachin
Senior Heliman
Location: Cape Canaveral, FL

Hello Phil,

Luckily my Ion's belt is still running strong on 12S. The method I've been using for belt tension is to turn the tensioning bolt until the belt reaches its full length/stretch (it will lock in suddenly as you tighten, don't try to stretch it past this point), then back it off between 1/8 to 1/4 turn. Tim recommended this to me at one point and the method has worked well for me so far. I'm also using a large 22t pulley on the motor for plenty of tooth contact (easier on the belt), I would highly recommend you do the same as long as you can obtain a similar gear ratio.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Chachin..

PS: That's an awesome looking canopy

08-20-2008 03:50 PM

misskimo
Key Veteran
Location: Alaska 12 years before , mississippi for 31 y

you need different pullys , those you have are to small
20t or bigger was my rule of thumb
you can get about the same ratio with bigger pullies

Do-Yo-Thang! !:~) Team ThunderPower, Minicopter & Spartan Gyros

08-20-2008 05:46 PM

Wyvern
Heliman
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Hey Misskimo,

On my Ion (one of the three Phil is talking about) I have a 30t primary pulley and a 20t motor pulley.

After a quick email to Bobby Watts, he told me that he really had to tighten the belt until it's like a guitar string and he never had his strip.

I'm also chasing down Tim from MA to get his thoughts as well.

Cheers,
Warrick

Futaba 14MZ (mode 2)
MA Ion-X2 12S

08-20-2008 07:45 PM

Phil.L
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia

Ok good news, Warrick was able to have a chat to Tim from MA and has sent out some bigger pullies to try. For my 10s setup i will be trying a 30/25 setup and the other 2 will be trying a 38/28 setup.

I bought a new belt today just to get the machine in the air, 5 gentle flights with 1800 headspeed and ok. Will see how many flights I can get on it.

At very worst case scenario, we were thinking it would not be hard to make new motor mount sides, and mount the motor directly to the main gear with a 10t pinion.

Would be running a 9.3:1 ratio, on 12s the Scorpion 500kv would be ideal, and on 10s the 560kv would be good.

Main gear should hold up fine, I managed to get 4.8kw peaks out of a 90 tooth 11mm thick helical main gear no problems.

Cant wait to get this machine tearing up the sky!

cheers

http://www.rotortips.net/ OutRage Batteries G5

08-21-2008 02:12 PM

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Phil.L
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia

Also, has anyone experimented with oiling the belts? Think these particular belts are ment to be oil proof. Should help effieciency, and degration of the belt, as long as it doesnt deteriorate it. Any thoughts?

http://www.rotortips.net/ OutRage Batteries G5

08-21-2008 02:15 PM

HOMEPAGE

TomC
Veteran
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia

Phil,

I've tried lots of lubes with belts and have found that, except for reducing RF noise (with graphite), they are pretty useless and only end up reducing the life of the belt imop.

As I've already said in a PM to you, I think that some of the problem may be due to the fact that MA have not provided an upper bearing support (like the new Logo 600 3D has) for the motor/pinion/pulley on the Ion-x2. This has been a big reason why I have not upgraded my original Ion-x's (one single staged 10:1 and my other double-staged at ~21:1), both on 15S.

I get ~3kWatts of power on both of these 15s setups.

Cheers,
TomC

CX2 2s
Logo10- 3D 5s
Trex600 10s
2x Ion-x, 1x15s DS, 1x15s SS

08-21-2008 04:52 PM

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