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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Fail safe for our gassers ?
 
 
ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

I have decided to add one to my current gasser build.
I have not read any technical information that suggests not to use it and in my mind the upside is huge.

we can never have too many, can we ?
07-30-2008 11:01 PM
 
 
Dimitris76
Senior Heliman
Location: Borås, Sweden

After many PMs asking for details I am posting these instructions:



EDIT: The relay I draw in the picture is a SPST (single pole single throw). That's the one you should use. Make also sure that it's coil is rated for (can be activated with) 5volts!

Dimitris
07-31-2008 09:58 AM
 
 
ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Dim, i am sure that will make sense to some here but not me

You are indeed one enlightened individual.

we can never have too many, can we ?
07-31-2008 11:39 AM
 
 
pgkevet
Veteran
Location: surrey UK

...just to educate me .. why a diode in parallel with the relay?

pgk
07-31-2008 11:57 AM
 
 
Dimitris76
Senior Heliman
Location: Borås, Sweden

This a good explanation (quoted from the web):

"Current flowing through a relay coil creates a magnetic field which collapses suddenly when the current is switched off. The sudden collapse of the magnetic field induces a (reverse) brief high voltage across the relay coil which is very likely to damage transistors and ICs."

So the parallel diode is there to take care of this voltage before it reaches the servo circuitry!

Dimitris
07-31-2008 12:46 PM
 
 
pgkevet
Veteran
Location: surrey UK

Quote 
So the parallel diode is there to take care of this voltage before it reaches the servo circuitry!

OK ..again forgive what may seem daft (to you).. but a diode in series on the wire would take care of a backflow.. the one in parallel is allowing current to bypass the relay when open .. and when i looked it up it is just a diode (as in current flow control rather than resistance and flow control).. so all it is doing is reducing flow to the relay?

pgk
07-31-2008 02:11 PM
 
 
Dimitris76
Senior Heliman
Location: Borås, Sweden

This conductive high voltage that is produced at the coil (while the magnetic field is collapsing) has reverse polarity. So this parallel diode prevents current flow through itself when the coil is powered externally, but shunts (shortcircuits) the reverse inductive current. It's a common practice to all the circuits that involve relays or other inductive components. It's not necessary in this case (due to the other - in series - diode) but that way you are 100% sure, even if the voltage get's over the diode's break down voltage.

Apparently I am not that good explaining things...

Dimitris

PS This circuit of course can be used in many other ways. Just replace the relay with a normal closed one (or a double throw one) to turn on/off lights, Video transmitters, switch to multiple video cameras, trigger shutters, connect/disconnect alternators, charge secondary on-board battery packs, release cargo, fire rockets, etc, etc...
07-31-2008 02:48 PM
 
 
pgkevet
Veteran
Location: surrey UK

Quote 
It's a common practice to all the circuits that involve relays or other inductive components. It's not necessary in this case (due to the other - in series - diode) but that way you are 100% sure, even if the voltage get's over the diode's break down voltage.

Thanks.

Quote 
Apparently I am not that good explaining things...

Last explanation makes sense.. it's just me that likes to understand stuff poperly (and then still makes mistakes)

pgk
07-31-2008 03:06 PM
 
 
Pistol_Pete
Elite Veteran
Location: Tampa Bay non-Buccaneer

been reading this with interest given that I foresee a gasser in the near future.

If memory serves me right its a "clipping" circuit. (not that it matters)

Why not place both diodes in series to each other, while remaining parallel to the circuit?

Would that be due to the limitation of the servo circuit board?

<><>...the lunatic is in my head...<><>
07-31-2008 03:12 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Dimitris76
Senior Heliman
Location: Borås, Sweden

Quote 
Why not place both diodes in series to each other, while remaining parallel to the circuit?

Would that be due to the limitation of the servo circuit board?

Yes, I want to be able to activate the relay over a certain point and deactivate it under that point. let's just say you use two 2.5kOhm resistors (or you just set the trimmer right in the middle. That way above 50% of the stick's travel (or Tx's pot range or switch up..) the relay is deactivated, the circuit is open and the engine runs. Under from 0 to 50% (or Tx's switch down) the relay is activated and the engine is killed. Of course that point is user adjustable everywhere from 0-100% according to the application.

If I didn't have this in-series diode the relay would be deactivated only at precisely 50%. Obviously not usefull when you only have a switch available on a non computer radio.

Dimitris
07-31-2008 04:04 PM
 
 
Pistol_Pete
Elite Veteran
Location: Tampa Bay non-Buccaneer

thanks for reply and clarification.

<><>...the lunatic is in my head...<><>
07-31-2008 05:15 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
The sudden collapse of the magnetic field induces a (reverse) brief high voltage across the relay coil which is very likely to damage transistors and ICs."

Devices intended for safety can sometimes be the cause of an accident. Cobbling up an unknown servo using unknown components, assembled by an untrained or incompetent individual is a very high risk.

If you were to buy a use helicopter you would disassemble it and put it back together because you don’t know how it was made when you bought it. Why would you trust something home built if you really don’t possess the skills or knowledge of the circuitry.

Quote 
Dim, i am sure that will make sense to some here but not me

I rest my case.

Ace
What could be more fun?
07-31-2008 05:41 PM
 
 
Dimitris76
Senior Heliman
Location: Borås, Sweden

Quote 
The sudden collapse of the magnetic field induces a (reverse) brief high voltage across the relay coil which is very likely to damage transistors and ICs."

Dude, it makes me wonder... Do you understand what you are reading??? Or are you skipping rows and read only what you want to read.
I said that while I was trying to explain to pgkevet the reason for the parallel diode in the circuit...

Oh well... I give up!
07-31-2008 07:39 PM
 
 
gas_hopper
Heliman
Location: ...

Good work Dimitris
thanks for posting , this info is great and very usefull , keep up the good work , and thanks for the diagram , GH
07-31-2008 08:33 PM
 
 
ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Dimi, have you built one ? Iwould like to see a picture of how it turned out.

My Modified pico switches are here and thats what i will be using but i would love to see one of your units

we can never have too many, can we ?
07-31-2008 10:39 PM
 
 
Dimitris76
Senior Heliman
Location: Borås, Sweden

I tested the circuit a couple a weeks ago with a HUGE socketed double throw relay that I had in the junk box.

I have already found the relay I want to use and I expect the whole thing - shrink wrapped - to measure around 2x1.5x0.5cm.

I am on call tomorrow so I'll have to go shopping on Monday, but sometime next week I'll be able to post pics.

Dimitris
07-31-2008 11:28 PM
 
 
ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Looking forward to seeing it.

we can never have too many, can we ?
07-31-2008 11:32 PM
 
 
Excalibur
Veteran
Location: Destination: Earth

The best method I have found (and saved my heli), is to use a simple momentary switch right on the frame by the motor in case you have a hot start, then also set up a switch on your radio to close the butterfly valve 100% remotely. Two forms of protection for relative simplicity.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore
08-01-2008 06:10 AM
 
 
windy62
Heliman
Location: USA

Xcal,

You already have a kill switch on the heli, in the form of a choke, or by placing your hand over the carb (if using a straight venturi),

AND, you already have a switch on the radio in the form of the throttle trim all the way down to kill the engine (if of course you set it up that way).

The last thing I want to be doing is searching for ANOTHER switch, either on the heli or on the radio, while doing battle with a hot start!! I just throw the choke on.

As I see it, the only truly reliable way to add a kill system is to have it on a completely separate frequency with it's own power source and hand held switch.......

windy62
08-02-2008 04:13 PM
 
 
Excalibur
Veteran
Location: Destination: Earth

Hi Windy62:

Quote 
You already have a kill switch on the heli, in the form of a choke, or by placing your hand over the carb (if using a straight venturi)

I hear what your saying and can agree in part, however, personal experience has proven otherwise.

I found that a choke is unnecessary on these engines, and since I don't have that option to stop the engine, especially with the UFO air cleaner installed, I use the remote switch on the transmitter to stop the engine after a run or when I need to tweak something. This switch is simply set up to close off the butterfly valve 100% immediately instead of messing with the digital trim on my throttle channel.

The first time I had a hot start was when I was still a newbie with my PGasser and forgot to turn on the receiver batteries before starting. Of course, at the time I had no mechanical kill switch installed, and all I could do was hold on to that blade for dear life and try to figure out what to do. After 20 to 30 seconds of insanity I was finally able to grab the fuel lines and yank them off. It TOTALLY took out every bit of liner in the clutch and left me in a cloud of smoke and clutch-liner particles.

I vowed that would never happen again, so after replacing the clutch, I wired in a permanent momentary push-button switch for any future emergencies:



Once you know it is right there by the engine when you're starting, you don't have to think while panicking during a hot start. Just knowing it is there, your hand instantly reaches over, hits the kill switch and suddenly all is quiet. Simple.

Quote 
As I see it, the only truly reliable way to add a kill system is to have it on a completely separate frequency with it's own power source and hand held switch.......


That is actually way overkill for the desired outcome and can lead to more problems than it solves. You will never have a kill switch system of any kind that will GUARANTEE that you can stop the motor any time, every time. The best you can do is to set up simple, reliable solutions that will work on 90 to 95% of the emergency situations you may encounter during operation. That is what I have done with my setup, and it has gotten me out of trouble more than once in the past and never interfered with normal operation because of the simplicity.

Like everything else in this hobby, you have to choose what works best for you and your flying style - that's cool. My point was to propose a solution that will work in the real world reliably (proven), and encourage open discourse. Good luck.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore
08-03-2008 06:52 AM
 
 
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