RunRyder - RAPTOR 50 Engine idle/starting issue

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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Engine idle/starting issue

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

I've been having this issue's since day 1 with my new 50 hyper, I can't figure it out maybe you guys can shed some light...i'm about to give up.

1) I followed the manual for breaking it in, turning the needle out the right amount. When the engine fires the blades turn, uncomfortably fast (they shouldn't turn at all in my opinion).

2) After dealing with issue #1 for 2-3 quick 3minute test flights; during the last test flight after landing the engine note and rpm got higher (nothing dangerous but it sounded like I was at 3/4 stick even though I landed). I shut it down for the day as it was getting dark.

I went to start it today and to get the engine to fire I need to be at 15% stick (took the blades off for testing purposes). Once it fires I try to tune it down so it at least idle's, no luck it only runs with the carb open that certain percentage.

I checked the plug, it glows. I checked the clutch everything is parallel. I checked all the wires, fuel filter. The thing just won't idle slow enough for the blades not to rotate, or even start unless the throttle hold is disengaged and I apply some stick (dangerous:rolleyes

Any advice I greatly appreciate. I'd normally contact my LHS but they are only in it for the $.

07-09-2008 01:45 AM

baby_zyklon
Key Veteran
Location: Singapore

Starting the engine w/o the blades is VERY DANGEROUS because 1.there is nothing that is smooth and safe for you to grip in case you have a hot start and 2. if you grip the blade grips with a hot start, you might cut your hand.

As for the idle issue, is the engine very rich? What is your needle setting like? Many(including me) have found that you need to adjust the idle valve leaner to have a proper idle on the hyper.

07-09-2008 02:09 AM

HOMEPAGE

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

The tuning needle is at the factory recommended 1.5 turns from closed. The mixture needed is at the factory setting.

I'm going to try a new glow plug tommorow, but it makes no sense since the current one glows and is brand new, but you never know I guess.

07-09-2008 02:11 AM

vortechZ230
Elite Veteran
Location: Michigan, U.S.A.

Take the carb off the engine, take it apart, give it a good cleaning!,including the spray bar, inside and out, sounds like something is plugged up, I was having all kinds of issues just like yours, till I cleaned the carb, now all is well!, good luck!

Blue skies, Light Winds!

07-09-2008 02:15 AM

HOMEPAGE

baby_zyklon
Key Veteran
Location: Singapore

Trying leaning the idle needle. It helps.

07-09-2008 02:15 AM

HOMEPAGE

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

I leaned it out a from 1 click all the way to 1/4 turn without any results..

07-09-2008 02:28 AM

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

Vortech

I'll give that a try. Did you use anything special to clean it?

07-09-2008 02:29 AM

baby_zyklon
Key Veteran
Location: Singapore

Lean the idle needle, not the main. You don't get any click feel with the idle needle(or some call it cam).

07-09-2008 03:05 AM

HOMEPAGE

Lamar Cooley
Senior Heliman
Location: Houma,La.,U.S.A.

Engine issue

Vertiviper,
First lets agree on our terminology of the engine needles.
Your engine is new so you should have the engine manual.
Page 13 shows the carburetor. The "idle screw" is indicated as the "mixture control screw". This is to fine tune your idle.
The "high speed" needle valve is indicated as the "needle valve".
This is to set your optimun high speed.
The "idle screw" can only be turned 90 degrees left or right of the center setting. The engine comes from the factory at the center of this range. Turn your "idle screw" right ( clockwise ) to lean the idle. Close it ( to the right) about 1/4 of this 90 degree range.
Note: half way would be at 45 degrees. All the way would be 90 degrees. Now remove your link from the throttle lever and close the carb. Then close( screw in ) the high speed needle. ( not too tight ) then open ( screw it out ) it 1-1/2 turns.
This will get you running. Bear in mind that this most likely is where you would be if the engine were broken in. O.K.
My 50 idles with a setting of 12 for the "Low" setting (or #1 )
in the throttle curve menu.
Next I would recommend you check out [url=http://raptortechnique.com]
and check out engine throttle linkage set up. In short you want 50%
throttle stick to equal 50% carb open. Set your throttle end points to 100 at high stick and 100 at low stick, "center" at 0 and "trim" at 0. Your throttle curve will work between to two 100 settings.
Also a quick check for fuel flow restriction is to take a length of tubing and attach it to the carb. fuel inlet. With the link off rotate the carb from closed to full open while blowing through the line. You will notice how the air flow changes from carb closed to full open and maybe clear it out or notice if there is a problem with flow. You more than likely know most, if not all of this.
I hope this is of some small help.
Regards

here when wanted; there when needed; everywhere when looked for

07-09-2008 05:36 AM

Skarn
Senior Heliman
Location: Pasadena, MD

All of the engine advice is great, but what are your radio settings?

In particular, what throttle curve are you running and what is your throttle trim at? If the blades are turning uncomfortably fast in idle, it sounds to me like your throttle curve and trim aren't set right. If the 1st point in your curve in normal mode is 0 (which it should be), the trim should be centered when starting. If it still idles too high, you need to check your throttle linkage....your low stick setting might be too much open carb....Lamar Cooley gave you good advice on checking that.

Also, the way I was taught for nitro is to hold the blade with one hand while starting it...that way the blades don't move at all.

Good luck,
Skarn

It's better to burn out than to fade away...

07-09-2008 01:57 PM

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

Lots of good ideas to try out here guys. I think my first step is to check the carb for any blockage, clean it. After that i'll reset my throttle linkage and factory settings (no different then how they've been setup but it's worth it to check)

My throttle curve in norm is linear with a #1 point of 0 (currently just to get it started it needs to be around 12-15 but at those values the blades want to turn at an unsafe rate)..hopefully leaning out the idle screw a 1/4 turn will help that.

I'll let everyone know how I make out. thanks

07-09-2008 02:49 PM

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

May have found the issue...

Looks like I may have found the issue. Even though last time I checked the clutch and it looked fine; this time around the clutch "teeth" weren't parallel, they were off by about 1mm from straight. Hopefully this is it, everything else looked fine.

We'll see!

07-09-2008 11:25 PM

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

*UPDATE* FIXED!!

Found the issue with the help of you guys.

Two part issue:

1) Clutch was bad, "teeth" weren't parallel thus upon normal idle speed the blades were spinning.

2) Throttle linkages were out of whack. At 50% stick the carb was about 70% open. I adjusted the linkage and the endpoints to get everything at 1:1 top to bottom.

I get it to fire up at 25% stick, no blade rotation. The new question I have is do I set the #1 postion throttle value a little a little above 25% so that it doesn't stall in flight? I setup my radio so that when I hit the gear switch(DX7) it reduces the throttle by 10%.

thanks all

07-10-2008 01:14 AM

Lamar Cooley
Senior Heliman
Location: Houma,La.,U.S.A.

Starting ussues

Vertiviper,
There is a couple of trains of thought on this issue.
Some people prefer to have the #1 point ( Low ) in the throttle curve at "0" and use the trim lever to set idle and also to stop the engine upon landing.
I and others set the low point ( #1) at whatever value gets a good reliable idle. Always leaving the engine trim at "0" and never having to fooling with it. This then allows you to use an "engine stop" button or switch to stop the engine.
By the way for your "throttle hold" curve set the value the same as the value for that #1 throttle curve value. You certainly don't your engine to stop when you hit "hold" but maintain a idle.
I'm not familier with the "gear" switch on the DX7 but assume that it should be the "throttle hold", Which is normally used for shooting auto's.
Again I refer you to [url=http://raptortechnique.com]
Mr. Mike Prewitt has and excellent site on Raptors.
Try it........... you'll like it.
By the way 25% seems a little high to me. As my OS50 idles reliably at 12
Also a linear throttle curve would be 0,25,50,75,100.
and a linear pitch curve would be the same as above. However these curves are exactly what you need when setting up your heli mechanicaly. After that thngs change to acheive the proper pitches and throttle settings for the various flight mode,ie "normal", "idle 1","idle2", and "throttle hold".
Regards

here when wanted; there when needed; everywhere when looked for

07-10-2008 04:42 AM

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

25% does seem a little high agree. Could it be it's just because i'm in the break-in period and running it very rich?

07-10-2008 01:53 PM

jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

- turning the idle mixture adjustment 1/4 turn on an OS-50 is WAY too much. the width of a screw driver is all you need to adjust at a time. 1/8 of a turn is all it takes to go from rich to lean. A good test for too lean is to go into a hover about 1 foot off the ground and hit throttle hold. The engine should go immediately to idle. If it "hangs" onto the throttle, it's too lean. Also you should get a nice idle without the clutch engaging. If not you might be a tad rich - error on the rich side though.

- how is the engine temperature on the backplate after a minute or two of hovering? Is it too hot to touch, warm or cool? it should be very warm but you should be able to put your finger on the backplate for 3-4 seconds before it gets uncomfortable.

- Your throttle arm linkage should be exactly parallel to the servo arm. Here is a great writeup on setting up the throttle linkage.

http://www.myraptor.net/r50v2/r50v2...le_linkage.html

...yep...

07-10-2008 02:30 PM

Vertiviper
Senior Heliman
Location: NY- USA

/\ thanks.

The linkages are all parallel.

I'll try leaning it out a little bit to hopefully hold an idle less than the 25% stick i have to give it now.

Again, this is still a new motor and needs to be broken in so it just may be like this during this rich period.

07-10-2008 02:42 PM

ZAC ATTACK
Senior Heliman
Location: Hamilton Ontario, CANADA

Make sure your endpoints are as close to %100 as possible,this can throw your idle point off causing a higher percentage like your expieriencing.

MAAC#77677 Medicated daily for your protection

07-17-2008 12:28 AM

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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Engine idle/starting issue

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