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Off Topics > Second amendment applies to individuals

tricid
Heliman
Location: Sherman, TX USA

It's really odd to see pro "rights"/freedom people argue with pro-gun people, seems so counter-intuitive.

As an honest question though, why do people even throw around labels like "right wing liberal" or "con" or whatever else anymore? From what I've been observing over the years, parties and labels in politics don't really mean much anymore.

06-30-2008 06:11 AM

Stet
Elite Veteran
Location: Long Beach CA

And what about now? Which campaign are you involved in? Do you work for someone and collect a paycheck? And did you complete this degree? And from which university?

I worked pro-bono for a couple years in Hollywood doing motion graphics and animation. That doesn't make me a special effects animator.

And you call this spew you freak out on analyzing public policy?

Let's do an insult count and you will be orders of magnitude above me, but I suppose you were never good at math or real analysis, now were you.

Vocation, now that's funny, like a plumber eh? Well, I guess the workload in polysci is more like a vacation compared to a real degree that takes some work.

And again, did you complete this fine education? University of California?

keepin' it real

06-30-2008 06:15 AM

LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

tricid,

Good observation...I find it very VERY ironic that when it comes to this topic Im usually talking to people who advocate having a big arsenal in case of a doomsday scenario where they might have to overthrow a govt. that is overstepping its bounds...YET they are totally okay with their govt wiretapping their phone calls, reading emails, and opening their mail, right now, here today!

It really is amazing...

06-30-2008 06:19 AM

Stet
Elite Veteran
Location: Long Beach CA

In other words you never graduated. Good night.

keepin' it real

06-30-2008 06:20 AM

tricid
Heliman
Location: Sherman, TX USA

Well, I'm a pro-arsenal person, if you will, for many reasons, but I also see the problems with wiretapping.

I don't agree with you that everyone is monitored always, but I will admit the government now has the unchecked power to monitor who ever they wish on a whim, and that is a very big problem freedom wise.

So I guess I think you're right, just that you exaggerate it a little. At the same time though, it's hard to exaggerate a freedom being damaged by the government. Either they're doing it or they're not, let's just agree they're doing it and not worry over how much, and work on making them not do it at all anymore. (and that applies for any freedom in my humble opinion)

It just seems some people in this thread are more or less on the same side of the fence and they're just arguing over who stuck their toe/foot over the line more. Why can't we just get along

06-30-2008 06:25 AM

LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

Stet,

Yes I did complete this degree from a California University. I am self-employed but all that is totally irrelevant. It's just another smokescreen youre trying to use...

I call it a vocation in comparison to a Poli Sci degree because a Liberal arts degree covers various fields and the student gets a more well-rounded education than an engineering major or a business major. Not intended as an insult, its just reality...

as far as insults go, I only return what you guys are throwing at me...

06-30-2008 06:27 AM

LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

tricid,

I agree with you and I share your concern about the govt overstepping its bounds but I have no reason to exaggerate. Bush has grabbed more power than any other President in our history. That's pretty obvious to people who have been paying attention.

Quote
let's just agree they're doing it and not worry over how much, and work on making them not do it at all anymore.

I'm down with that...and that's what I'm doing and that's why I am against McCain because he supports continuing Bush policies...

06-30-2008 06:34 AM

tricid
Heliman
Location: Sherman, TX USA

Quote
I'm down with that...and that's what I'm doing and that's why I am against McCain because he supports continuing Bush policies...

Couldn't agree much more with the above. I don't find Obama to be a "perfect" candidate, but I definitely find him as at least ideal, and most definitely the best option this time around. I mainly just disagree with his gun views, and affirmative action views. I haven't found much else to dislike him for.

I wouldn't have minded having kucinich or ron paul as viable options this year, but I am happy with Obama as an option.

I think the above demonstrates my total lack of dedication to any one party. I usually judge on the person and the person's own policies rather than party. To be perfectly honest I don't even know the meaning (assuming there is some) behind most of the labels and parties in today's time.

06-30-2008 06:39 AM

RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

Lou

Quote
THere you go again, you get trounced so you pretend that you have won the argument and that I am not answering some question of yours.

Fact is you are afraid of the answer so you throw a red herring into the mix.

The only one getting "trounced" here is you. And the proof is your inability to stay on topic and answer simple questions.

Quote
Politicians have been known to grandstand, and its easy to do when you know what youre talking about is not politically possible

Grandstanding: to conduct oneself or perform showily or ostentatiously in an attempt to impress onlookers: The senator doesn't hesitate to grandstand if it makes her point.

The thing is to be ABLE to grandstand you have to say things that OTHERS want to hear. So that goes to show that gun control people in fact DO want confiscation...Otherwise what good would it be to make that statement?

Quote
BTW, if you cant decipher my posts, and you're going to require another long explanation of minute details, do not bother responding to my post...you cant win an argument so you resort to trying to frustrate the other person by trying to focus on minutiae. Your tactics are lame...don't try it again...

I can't decipher your posts...Only due to you changing and obscuring the meanings when it suits you.

1. You made a claim...I provided proof that shattered your claim.
2, You made some lame attempt to call it grandstanding...Well who do you think she was trying to impress?
3. I asked you a simple question...Since you think the Govt is willing to spy on you for no reason, and you approved of the confiscation during Katrina...What makes you so sure they would not do it whenever they want?
4. You refused to answer that question since you KNEW it would make you look bad. So you tried to change the entire direction of the thread.
5. Through it all, you insist on trying to make lame insults.

Face it Lou...You lost....Again.

Care to actually answer the question asked?

If you feel the Govt is eavesdropping on you illegally...What makes the idea of confiscation too far fetched especially since they have already done it?

06-30-2008 01:21 PM

RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

For those that thing a domestic eavesdropping program is something "Bush did":

The Govt has had records on citizens for many years....Before WW2 even. It is not new.

Read up on the program called "CHAOS". It was established in 1967 on orders from President Lyndon Johnson. Read up on Project RESISTANCE, Project MERRIMAC, Project MINARET, Project SHAMROCK, COINTELPRO, ect. All of these programs were designed to track people in the US, not people in the US communicating with a terrorist network.

Christopher Pyle wrote an article about some of this in 1970.

Congress passed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978 in part as a response to these kinds of programs. But that Act had no way to take into account the internet and cell phones and was not designed when terror attacks were being held on US soil.

The DOD has had 5240 1-R since 1982.

06-30-2008 01:26 PM

fiveoboy01
Veteran
Location: Waunakee, WI - USA

Quote

fiveo,

Your question is irrelevant. Whether I can prove that I am personally being wiretapped is entirely irrelevant. The FACT is the program exists and we are ALL being surveilled at all times. If you were to read anything about this program (which Im sure you won't) you would already know that. They are using computers to sift through every phone call as it happens and they're looking for keywords. ...and we all know that computers never fail, right

It doesn't matter what you want to believe or how many times you ask me to prove that I am being wiretapped, the truth is it is real.

Ok, so the fact is that you haven't/can't catch anyone tapping your phone lines? Why don't you just come out and say that you aren't able to prove it?

My question is very relevant, it's asking you to back up your claim with something tangible other than a press/media article. I read both articles you cited, and one can interpret them to mean what you're saying, but there is little real proof that it's going on to the extent you're claiming. I can agree with you that it happens. I can't agree that it's widespread to the extent you claim without more information or evidence other than you saying that it's real...

Quote
Im not familiar with all the details in New Orleans but if I remember correctly there was complete chaos in the streets.

Police were entering people's homes and confiscating firearms.

Quote
Do you really think its a great idea to have guns floating around freely when law enforcement is nowhere to be found and food and supplies are scarce and people are getting to the point where they're willing to kill others to get it?

Re-read your statement, put yourself in the position of one of the homeowners, and you tell me. I can't believe you even need to ask such a question.... The answer is obvious.

Quote
and you'd be wrong...

Just because YOU say so, doesn't make it reality

Trex 450SA blinged, Trex 600N, DX7

06-30-2008 01:45 PM

tricid
Heliman
Location: Sherman, TX USA

Not that I like Bush, because trust me, I do not (understatement), but blaming current situations on him is being a bit short sighted. Congress allowed him to do most of the things he's done that we don't like, and congress has passed plenty of these "laws" eroding our freedoms that we don't like, they've allowed the war (if you're against that), and frankly, they've never done much of anything to stand up to him (with a few individual exceptions).

I just feel that's important to keep in mind. It isn't only his fault all the wiretapping laws exist as they do now. It isn't only his fault that the system of checks and balances has been allowed to be ignored, or ineffective.

If anything, I blame congress a lot more than I do Bush.

That's just my opinion though.

06-30-2008 02:28 PM

tricid
Heliman
Location: Sherman, TX USA

Quote
Do you really think its a great idea to have guns floating around freely when law enforcement is nowhere to be found and food and supplies are scarce and people are getting to the point where they're willing to kill others to get it?

I hope I'm not taking this out of context, but I'd have to say that is precisely when I would both want, and do everything in my power to keep my guns.

Innocent until proven guilty. Don't take a sane man's gun because he's surrounded by lunatics, and the method above sounds like exactly that.

06-30-2008 02:31 PM

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