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Off Topics > Second amendment applies to individuals
 
 
Stet
Elite Veteran
Location: Long Beach CA

When we lived in Marseilles France, where modern weapons were illegal, we owned and kept loaded antique muzzleloaders. It was a very violent and dangerous place in '69.

You catch a 70 cal miniball in the gut and you won't think about the difference. Nor would you feel too good after getting a blast from the blunderbuss loaded with broken glass, rocks and nails. That one is still on the mantle, loaded, at my dad's house.

A firearm is a firearm.

If I choose to form a "well regulated militia", I will need my firearms.

The Steyr is a very nice rifle. A few years after I moved to CA, I sold my Powder Springs MAC-10 complete with suppressor. I've cut down my shooting hobby, now it is photography and helicopters.

keepin' it real
06-29-2008 08:02 AM
 
 
LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

Hey Stet, (and the rest of the gun nuts)

I think this guy is talking to you...LOL!

06-29-2008 09:03 AM
 
 
LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

fiveoboy,

This topic has been rehashed many times over but if you own a computer, cell phone, or even receive mail your freedoms are being infringed upon every day. Every form of communication you, us, we use is being surveilled by our own govt.

got any more dumb questions?
06-29-2008 09:20 AM
 
 
RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

jb_turner

Quote 
The second amendment does not give individuals the "the right to keep and bear arms" what it does is gives individuals of a well regulated Militia the right to keep and bear arms.

It pretty much exactly gives individuals the right.
06-29-2008 11:12 AM
 
 
fiveoboy01
Veteran
Location: Waunakee, WI - USA

Quote 
fiveoboy,

This topic has been rehashed many times over but if you own a computer, cell phone, or even receive mail your freedoms are being infringed upon every day. Every form of communication you, us, we use is being surveilled by our own govt.

got any more dumb questions?

I was asking you to cite an example about YOUR freedoms(as in a specific example given by yourself pertaining to your own experience) being infringed upon, not mine...

As usual, a blurb with zero proof, followed by an insult. And you call the rest of us "too easy"

Your predictability is amusing if not monotonous.

Trex 450SA blinged, Trex 600N, DX7
06-29-2008 01:27 PM
 
 
Stet
Elite Veteran
Location: Long Beach CA

Yeah, I asked the same question and got no substantive response either.

They imagine the threat, and use it as an excuse to talk trash about Bush. Never considering the positive aspects of what the patriot act has accomplished.

They will sacrifice anything to make themselves feel superior, that is until it is something that actually applies to them. Case in Point, Chicago bans guns, but city Aldermen are exempt. I guess their needs for self defense trump those of the poor residents who live in gang and gun infested neighborhoods who have no need to defend themselves. But the limousine liberals in their nice houses do have that need? Yeah right.

Take away from one, give to another (especially themselves). Maybe you should be concerned more about the rights you so willingly waive to liberal government.

keepin' it real
06-29-2008 02:32 PM
 
 
Pistol_Pete
Elite Veteran
Location: Tampa Bay non-Buccaneer

@Rotor

Quote 
BJ, Pistol and Lou. The three stooges strike again!

tsk tsk...disagree on opinion and you go down to this level?

BTW...seen better.

******

Quote 
Yeah, I asked the same question and got no substantive response either.

BS

Quote 
Privacy rights.

has your communications been monitored lately?

but you choose to ignore it or try to back it up with

Quote 
Never considering the positive aspects of what the patriot act has accomplished

considered and still wondering why borders are not a major issue...anymore.

<><>...the lunatic is in my head...<><>
06-29-2008 04:04 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Pistol_Pete
Elite Veteran
Location: Tampa Bay non-Buccaneer

Quote 
zero proof,

yeap...same about SH and his WMS.

<><>...the lunatic is in my head...<><>
06-29-2008 04:06 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BJames111
Elite Veteran
Location: Billings, Montana

I have to say, I never really did understand gun control. I think you should be able to have just about any firearm you want. It's obvious that gun control doesn't really help keep guns out of criminals hands, there are FAR to many in circulation already. There needs to be a place to draw the line between what is legal for a citizen to own, for instance class 3 suppressors and FA? I don't have a problem with a responsible citizen owning them. rocket launchers and grenades??? now that's getting extreme. I feel that the danger would be too great for others.

Stet, how did you like the mc10? I used to have a cobray m11, it was a pos and still my absolute favorite fun gun was my ruger 10/22. Close second was my romanian ak semi auto, but not too accurate.

Brian James
Miniature Aircraft Fury Extreme
Align Trex600N
G-Force Heli
Elevated R/C
06-29-2008 04:06 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Kuwaiti3Der
Heliman
Location: Kuwait

Quote 
fiveoboy,

This topic has been rehashed many times over but if you own a computer, cell phone, or even receive mail your freedoms are being infringed upon every day. Every form of communication you, us, we use is being surveilled by our own govt.

got any more dumb questions?
yankee doodle paranoia
you are so vain to think that the US gov wants to surveil your comms
06-29-2008 04:34 PM
 
 
Wa11banger
Elite Veteran
Location: Huntsville, Al

I am all for having guns. I always have been, and until recently it was a lost hobby for me. I still had them but they were just being stored until now. My son has become interested so they have now been dusted off and have "again" started another cycle of teaching proper gun safety, management, and use, to their fourth generation.

Some of the weapons (notice the change) I own are not standard everyday run of the mill guns. But amazingly in four generations none of these "weapons" has managed to kill anything but a target or a meal. This statistic is so amazing! My family should get an award or something because starting for the fourth generation it has owned and shot weapons and not killed a single human being. According to most anti-gun supporters that just simply cannot be! Since the guns and weapons are owned they must be killing people with them right?

Geez people, the whackos you see in the media improperly handling a weapon or guns are no more a representation of the entire gun owning population than those same three people they seem to always interview when a tornader' rips through the trailer complex is to representing the entire population of the south.

I will tell you what, let’s put a different spin on it shall we? Since it has been proven that charred meat "MAY" cause colon cancer.(BTW Far more people die from colon cancer than any gun related death approximately 2:1, and even way more by colon cancer than from law abiding gun owners) I mean because you are cooking the meat (similar to firing it eh?) it may inadvertently get overcooked in a section or for a particular geographical area and cause harm to all that are exposed. Matter of fact, if left unchecked, an entire nation could be at risk (minus vegans) just because people possess and use BBQ’s.

Starting today there is a "BAN" on all BBQ's and other cooking "weapons" that can be detrimental to your health and can cause fat to melt, hit hot metal or coals, turn into smoke, and infuse back into the cooking flesh.

Now this is fair, and even though vegans are not susceptible to charring of the fat, they also cannot own a BBQ even though they are not misusing it and practice safe BBQ use!

This mentality of punishing everyone for the actions of the few has gone completely off of scale. Whatever happened to stricter repercussions for your actions? If "WE" would make the punishments stiffer for using said weapon improperly then we wouldn’t have the problems many think we now have with them. But, because the penalty for misusing a weapon and killing someone isn’t painful enough, people still do and will continue to do so no matter what law is in effect.

I will leave you with this thought. If you want to exercise proper gun “control”, start holding offenders responsible and accountable for their actions.

Thank you that is all
(click)

Rick

Proud member of the Quick UK, Duralite Flight Systems, V-Blade, and KBDD teams
06-29-2008 05:02 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

fiveo and Stunt,

I doesn't get any more specific than that! Every cell phone call, landline call, email, EVERY form of communication that you or (pay close attention) I use is being surveilled by the Bush Administration 24 hours a day.

I'm pretty impressed with how you Cons are so good at pretending it's not happening though...

Okay so now your next move as Good Germans is to say "What are you worried about? Are you doing something wrong? The govt can surveil me all they want, I have nothing to hide." LOL

Which proves that you Cons are all talk when it comes to freedom because you are readily willing to give up your freedoms in exchange for your Fuhrer protecting you from a few barefooted madmen in the desert...LOL

I realize you need to live in denial about that in order to cope but you're in a public forum now so you should be pretty embarrassed...

but then again, I'm assuming that you know how our system works...

silly me...
06-29-2008 07:31 PM
 
 
LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

Interesting stats that gun nuts want to ignore

http://www.neahin.org/programs/scho...ics.htm#america

Statistics: Gun Violence in Our Communities

School Safety
Less than 1% of all homicides among school-aged children (5-19 years of age) occur in or around school grounds or on the way to and from school. (Centers for Disease Control, 1997)

Children and Gun Violence
In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)

America and Gun Violence
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)

Guns in the Wrong Hands
Faulty records enable terrorists, illegal aliens and criminals to purchase guns. Over a two and a half-year period, at least 9,976 convicted felons and other illegal buyers in 46 states obtained guns because of inadequate records. (Broken Records, Americans for Gun Safety Foundation)

School Safety

Between 1994 and 1999, there were 220 school associated violent events resulting in 253 deaths - - 74.5% of these involved firearms. Handguns caused almost 60% of these deaths. (Journal of American Medical Association, December 2001)

In 1998-99 academic year, 3,523 students were expelled for bringing a firearm to school. This is a decrease from the 5,724 students expelled in 1996-97 for bringing a firearm to school. (U.S. Department of Education, October 2000)

Nearly 8% of adolescents in urban junior and senior high schools miss at least one day of school each month because they are afraid to attend. (National Mental Health & Education Center for Children & Families, National Association of School Psychologists 1998)
The National School Boards Association estimates that more than 135,000 guns are brought into U.S. schools each day. (NSBA, 1993)

Children and Gun Violence

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
America and Gun Violence

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)
Guns in the Wrong Hands

Americans for Gun Safety produced a 2003 report that reveals that 20 of the nation’s 22 national gun laws are not enforced. According to U.S. Department of Justice data (FY 2000-2002), only 2% of federal gun crimes were actually prosecuted. Eighty-five percent of cases prosecuted relate to street criminals in possession of firearms. Ignored are laws intended to punish illegal gun trafficking, firearm theft, corrupt gun dealers, lying on a criminal background check form, obliterating firearm serial numbers, selling guns to minors and possessing a gun in a school zone.

To access The Enforcement Gap: Federal Gun Laws Ignored, visit http://w3.agsfoundation.com/. For a state-by-state chart of gun crimes (FY 2000-2002), click here.

Studies show that 1 percent of gun stores sell the weapons traced to 57 percent of gun crimes. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), the dealer that armed the DC area sniper is among this small group of problem gun dealers that "supply the suppliers" who funnel guns to the nation's criminals. (Between 1997 and 2001, guns sold by this dealer were involved in 52 crimes, including homicides, kidnappings and assaults.

Still open today, it also can't account for 238 guns or say whether they were stolen, lost or sold, or if their buyers underwent felony-background checks.) As a result, these few gun dealers have a vastly disproportionate impact on public safety. The ATF can recognize such dealers based on: (1) guns stolen from inventory; (2) missing federal sales records, needed by police to solve crimes; (3) having 10 weapons a year traced to crimes; (4) frequently selling multiple guns to individual buyers; and (5) short times between gun sales and their involvement in crimes. Yet ATF enforcement is weak due to a lack of Congressional support and resources. For more details, click here.

Terrorists have purchased firearms at gun shows, where unlicensed sellers are not currently required to conduct background checks or to ask for identification. According to the Middle East Intelligence Report, for example, a Hezbollah member was arrested in November 2000, after a nine-month investigation by the FBI's counter-terrorism unit. Ali Boumelhem was later convicted on seven counts of weapons charges and conspiracy to ship weapons and ammunition to Lebanon. Federal agents had observed Boumelhem, a resident of Detroit and Beirut, travel to Michigan gun shows and buy gun parts and ammunition for shipment overseas. Boumelhem was prohibited from legally purchasing guns as gun stores because he was a convicted felon. Additional cases involve a Pakistani national with an expired (1988) student visa; a Lebanese native and Hamas member with numerous felony convictions; and a supporter of the Irish Republican Army. (USA Today, Wednesday, November 28, 2001 Americans for Gun Safety)

According to Americans for Gun Safety (December 2002), gun theft is most likely in states without laws requiring safe storage of firearms in the home and where there are large numbers of gun owners and relatively high crime rates. Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage. To access "Stolen Guns: Arming the Enemy" visit www.agsfoundation.com.

The American Medical Association reports that between 36% and 50% of male eleventh graders believe that they could easily get a gun if they wanted one.

In 1998-99 academic year, 3,523 students were expelled for bringing a firearm to school. This is a decrease from the 5,724 students expelled in 1996-97 for bringing a firearm to school. (U.S. Department of Education, October 2000)

According to a report by the Joshephson Institute of Ethics (2000 Report Card: Report #1), 60% of high school and 31% of middle school boys said they could get a gun if they wanted to (April, 2001).
06-29-2008 07:48 PM
 
 
Wa11banger
Elite Veteran
Location: Huntsville, Al

Those arent ignored stats Lou... The problem is only the stats that are important to you do you even hear (read) I am sure that stats are even skewed for either sides benifit but the facts remain the same.. My scenario holds more merit since more people die of colon cancer a year than guns..

Rick

Proud member of the Quick UK, Duralite Flight Systems, V-Blade, and KBDD teams
06-29-2008 07:56 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Tintin
Veteran
Location: Akershus, Norway

Even the swedes have that kind of surveillance now....

Supposedly a leftie :-)
06-29-2008 08:02 PM
 
 
Wa11banger
Elite Veteran
Location: Huntsville, Al

Quote 
Which proves that you Cons are all talk when it comes to freedom because you are readily willing to give up your freedoms in exchange for your Fuhrer protecting you from a few barefooted madmen in the desert...LOL


This is exactly what anti-gun supporters are asking isnt it? Aren't they asking for all to give up thier guns for sport, hunting, defense, killing spree, etc.? Because the police are there to take care of you and so on? So the responsible gun owners do not need any guns for show, hobby, protection, etc. by god the police will do it for you. The problem isnt with the guns, its with the penalties.

Proud member of the Quick UK, Duralite Flight Systems, V-Blade, and KBDD teams
06-29-2008 08:11 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jb_turner
Key Veteran
Location: USA

tricid.... yes I am pro gun. Just the fact that we are having this discussion shows how ambiguous the second amendment is. We need a new amendment that clearly defines the rights of citizens to own weapons including assault and rapid fire weapons just like some of the criminal element has.

JB "Do a SEARCH" Turner
06-29-2008 08:56 PM
 
 
LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

WAllbanger, NO, that is exactly NOT what pro gun control people are advocating. They are advocating CONTROLS on gun ownership, not confiscation of guns. The NRA will tell you that if you allow any form of gun control then the govt's next step will be to break into your home and steal all your guns. That is paranoid propaganda which is designed to get you to contribute to their cause and bleed as many dollars out of you as possible.

Watch that video, he explains it pretty well...America had no standing army back then so we needed to be able to form militias very quickly in case our enemies arrived on our shores. We dont need militias today, despite what the NRA tells you in order to get your money...
06-30-2008 03:18 AM
 
 
fiveoboy01
Veteran
Location: Waunakee, WI - USA

Quote 
The NRA will tell you that if you allow any form of gun control then the govt's next step will be to break into your home and steal all your guns. That is paranoid propaganda which is designed to get you to contribute to their cause and bleed as many dollars out of you as possible.

Firearms confiscation?

Are you saying that the stories of confiscation in New Orleans were simply made up to further the cause of paraniod propaganda?

There is at least ONE individual in Congress(Republican or Democrat, I'll let you guess) who has openly advocated EXACTLY what you're speaking of.... Do you really believe that not one other individual in Congress agrees with that view?

Quote 
I doesn't get any more specific than that! Every cell phone call, landline call, email, EVERY form of communication that you or (pay close attention) I use is being surveilled by the Bush Administration 24 hours a day.


I'd agree that survelliance occurs, but I don't think it's as broad as you suggest.

Please show evidence that every form of communication used by EVERY individual in the country is tapped/surveyed.

And I'm still waiting for a personal experience of your own. If all your lines are tapped, surely you've caught "them" watching you?

Trex 450SA blinged, Trex 600N, DX7
06-30-2008 04:00 AM
 
 
RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

Lou

Quote 
They are advocating CONTROLS on gun ownership, not confiscation of guns

Preventing people from owning was found unconstitutional.

Diane Feinstein would also not agree with you:

Quote 
"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an out right ban,
picking up every one of them... "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in,
"I would have done it
. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."
--U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), CBS-TV's "60 Minutes," 2/5/95


Quote 
"Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe."
--U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein Associated Press 11/18/93


Yet she carried:
Quote 
"And, I know the sense of helplessness that people feel. I know the urge to arm yourself because that's what I did. I was trained in firearms. I'd walk to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me."

Quote 
The NRA will tell you that if you allow any form of gun control then the govt's next step will be to break into your home and steal all your guns.

If you feel the Govt is easdropping on you illegally...What makes this idea to far fetched?
06-30-2008 04:07 AM
 
 
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