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Ace Hobby . Esprit Model . Thunder Power RC

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e-Align T-REX 450-500-600 > T-REX 450 What is 'Thermal Shutdown'?
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

I saw this term on a thread, and think that might be what happened to my Align 35x ESC.

It has been in the high 90s, low 100s lately when I fly, and I had the ESC all but stop powering the motor (like a slow rotate, but not total stoppage)

Anyone else have this problem??? Any solutions (other than wait til winter

Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-24-2008 09:27 AM
 
 
dizzymarkus
Heliman
Location: Oswego, NY

esc temps

Swap it out for another esc to see if that was the problem -- mine gets warm but not hot enougnh to toast. Even running back to back batts.

Markus
06-24-2008 11:19 AM
 
 
TomRex
Elite Veteran
Location: West Palm Beach Fl.

Disable the lvc on the esc and fly with a timer. Be sure not to over draw the battery as it will shorten the life. Be sure your stuff spins free and not binding(head, belt etc.) Set your gyro correctly as the servo will use too much power(get excessivly warm) if the centering is off. Sure it will hold but it will also use a ton of energy.

The AMA is way better than what you belong to!
06-24-2008 12:13 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

Check your pinion mesh and your belt tension. If either are too tight then you will heat up your motor, battery, and ESC.

Out of curiosity, did you measure any temps o nthe battery, ESC or the motor when this incident happened?
06-24-2008 01:30 PM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

no, didn't measure temps...but they didn't seem scorching hot afterwards...I've seen setups that were much hotter after a successful flight. I might take a run to the Bowl and do a little hovering to see if it will happen again-and take my temp sensor gun/thingee with me.
thanks guys!

Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-24-2008 05:50 PM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Just got back from FRY's Electronics...bought a cheap CPU fan and was thinking about setting it up on the ESC...Anyone else done this?

Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-24-2008 10:54 PM
 
 
dizzymarkus
Heliman
Location: Oswego, NY

No I cant say as I have -- can I ask you why? for cooling !? lol Stepping up to a better esc or a seperate bec would be the ticket :0)

Markus
06-24-2008 11:56 PM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Almost to the triple digits here in Phoenix...I think high Ambient temp would be an issue for other controllers too.

I may cut a hole in the top of the canopy for some airflow-it doesn't seem like there is much FLOW, despite the big hole in the bottom.
Remember from flying glow powered planes-if you have a cowled engine, the exit hole should be twice as big as the entrance.

Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-25-2008 12:42 AM
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Thermal shutdown.

The linear regulators used in most BEC designs end up getting HOT when lots of current is flowing through them. With a proper heat sink, and the appropriate amount of air flowing past it, the regulators generally will stay cool and do their thing.

But, with almost no heat sink, and little air flow (as is the case in most BEC designs), the regulator gets VERY hot. The maximum internal operating temperature for most linear regulators is about 150 degrees C. The regulator is designed so that as the operating junction temperature approaches that magic 150 degree C number, it shuts the regulator down. As a result, the regulator cools down a bit, and when a safe temperature is reached, the shutdown circuit allows the regulator to again start doing its regulating thing.

Thermal shutdown is designed to protect the linear regulator element from cooking itself to death.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
06-25-2008 01:08 AM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Great explaination! thanks a ton.

Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-25-2008 03:20 AM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

I'm bringing my temp gun, and heading out tomorrow around 1pm to do some 'testing'!

I'm working in the early morning, but I'll leave the heli in my truck til 1, then it'll be nice and warm.

I'll do some (very low) hovering, temp check, then swap batteries, then again.

If I get the same problem, I'm going to cut a hole in the top of the canopy and check temps again.

If it still cuts out, I'm thinking either a HUGE heatsink, or putting this cpu fan on top of the ESC so it gets more airflow.

I'm thinking that it's underneath the battery, stuck in the nose, and there is not much airflow going on up there.

Maybe I'll put one of those water cooler tricked out copper piped graphics card coolant systems on it! with LEDs and everything

If it still cuts out, I guess I'll just have to bust out my .60 size Ergo! (ah, love that big beautiful chunk of a smooth flyin' heli!)


Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-25-2008 07:38 AM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

OK, took the heli out of the case this afternoon, and ESC temp was 106 (f).
I plugged battery in, and pushed the throttle up, but the motor surged a little, and wouldn't come up to speed. I checked the ESC immediately after, and the temp was 128!! The motor was warm also, but about 114 ish. Battery pack remained at 106.
I'm going to test it again in my kitchen with the temps at 73 ish degrees to see if it does the same thing.


Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-25-2008 10:27 PM
 
 
SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

hhmm, it's been a while since I measured my temps but that doesn't seem too high. Ofcourse, if you measured those kinds of temps on the outside of the ESC then it is entirely possible that the Junction Temperatures on the regulator were much higher, probably 15 or 20C higher.
06-26-2008 12:52 PM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

I finally tested my setup inside my house at an ambient temp of 74 deg. Heli spooled up fine...I am totally UNconfident in this ESC now however...what happens when I fly it and warm it up again?? CUTOUT CITY!!

So, on my way home from the airport, I stopped at my LHS, and they suggested a CC45. I have used them before and like them...but, it doesn't have a heatsink. I think if I move it to the side of the heli (vs underneath the batt where I have it now) it will get better cooling.

Anyone ever put a heatsink on a CC45??


Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-29-2008 06:48 PM
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

It's hard to say WHAT is causing your high operating temperatures. I'm not familiar with the particulars of the Align speed controls, but I'd suspect that the heat sink is there for the purpose of keeping the motor switching FETs cool, not the on-board linear regulator cool. It would be nice if it were there for the regulators, however. If I had one of those Align ESCs, I might dissect it to figure out what is actually being cooled by the heat sink and be able to offer a more definitive answer with regard to the Align design.

In the CC designs that I'm familiar with (CC Phoenix 25 and 35), as well as the 45, there are three linear regulators on board.

One of the three is used to supply the local voltage needed to run the microcontroller, and to provide the voltage level drive to the switching FETs that control the current in the three motor windings to make the motor run. In general, THIS regulator does NOT get overly hot, and doesn't contribute to operational problems.

The remaining two regulators are wired in parallel, ostensibly to attain the "3 amp" rating of the CC P25/35/45 BEC. (This has been discussed before, it's my opinion that the "3 amp" rating is bogus, and the way that the two regulators are wired in parallel can actually cause more trouble than it might solve). But that's a whole different thread. It's these two regulators that create the power supply that's needed to run your receiver, servos, and gyro.

If THAT particular 5V power supply goes into thermal shutdown, you lose control of the RADIO and the SERVOS, since you lose juice to them. The other regulator continues to work and provide power to the on-board microcontroller and the motor control stuff.

Of those two parallel-wired regulators in the CC designs, only ONE is visible to the naked eye. The second one is mounted within the "sandwich" that makes up the board stackup of the CC controllers. The third regulator that provides juice to the microcontroller and FET drive is also visible.

For your extra warm Texas weather, it would make sense to mount your ESC/BEC where they get adequate cooling air, even if that cooling air is 100 degrees +.

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It would be a good idea to make sure that all of your linkages move freely and have as little friction as possible. This will lessen the load on your BEC and allow it to run cooler.

-----

* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
06-29-2008 07:11 PM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

The original location may have been a big part of the problem. I removed the Align ESC, and the heat sink was barely attatched-it seems the double sided tape had started to 'unstick'. This would no doubt lessen the heat transferrability betw. the regulators(?).
I noticed that the two capacitors on the Align ESC were dented, likely from my original crash. I doubt this would have any bearing of the thermal shutdown point of the controller though.

dkshema-if you'd like, I'll send you the Align controller free so you can take a look at it and see if there is any fault with it.
A little bonus for your thoughts and inputs .

I did rob the connectors AND heatsink off of it. I was going to either double-stick tape it to the cc45 or even CA it (to the back side). thoughts?


Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-29-2008 07:29 PM
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

You can send it to me for a dissection, you may never see it operational, in one piece again, however....

I try to take things apart so they can go back together, but there's always the chance that "sh** happens".

If you're serious, I'll PM you my address.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
06-29-2008 07:34 PM
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Unless the heat sink is attached to the heat producing devices with a thermally conductive material, the heat sink will serve no useful purpose.

Those dents in the electrolytic caps, on the other hand, may be more serious than you think. It doesn't take a whole lot of shock to fracture the internal connection between the wire lead and the foil/dielectric "slug" that's inside the can. Perhaps a picture of the dents....?

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
06-29-2008 07:44 PM
 
 
Herky
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ

sent you a PM...I'll let you dissect it!!

Ergo 60, JR 8301, TREX SEV2, Multiplex Royal EVO 9
06-29-2008 10:07 PM
 
 
SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

Some pics of my CC35 with Custom Heatsink Modification





Do you have any airflow holes cutout for cooling airflow? I've never once had a problem with this heatsink installed. It has three metal strips spaced perfectly in width and length to cover the IC's. It doesn't do anything for the regulator though.
06-30-2008 12:52 AM
 
 
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e-Align T-REX 450-500-600 > T-REX 450 What is 'Thermal Shutdown'?
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