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Century Helicopter . MTA Hobbies . Model Rectifier Corp

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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > MultiGov Pro connection of leads
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Don't ignore what you don't know.

I'm running an YS50 myself and I had the same opinion as you when I first started at electronic mixture control... now I can't imagine living without it. Even if you think your manual mixture setting is better, just put your manual setting as the leanest point in the mixture sub-system and program it to run at 130C. It won't fiddle with your needle and pass completely unoticed until the day when you have a fuel or pressure problem and suddently your inactive mixture control device will open your needle half a turn saving your engine.

Just for that, its worth having one.

Tony


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"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
06-24-2008 03:29 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

On a YS three needle carb, do you normally run the mix control on the hover needle, or ? ? ?

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
06-24-2008 05:58 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

A tricky question hum?

On a OS its obviously the main needle but many have implemented a push pull type of link that for every click on one needle will open the other needle in a ratio of 2:1 up to 5:1

About the YS with a 3 needle carb it would depend on the type of flying. For 3D I would start only by messing with the top needle maintaining the basic fuel flow through the hover needle as the engine is basically using the top 20% of its carb opening. For normal sport flying I would hook up the mixture control either only on the hover needle or on both.

There is some literature about rigging up 90 sized engines with mixture control on RR

Tony


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"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
06-24-2008 08:19 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Ace Dude
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

Currently, the three speeds are set to the 0%, 50%, and 100% servo outputs. Seems like it would be quite easy to just make it 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% or any similar equidistant spacing thereof.



06-26-2008 01:38 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

If the interested is there, I'm sure Bob will make it happen however 5 speeds? Isn't that a little too much? How many guys will actually use 5 speeds? Personally I'm using... cof... Speed2!. Speed1 is OFF and Speed 3 is only when I want to compare two different headspeeds. The rest of the time I just fly in Speed2. Maybe I'm the minority but at my field thats how most pilot fly.

Tony


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"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
06-26-2008 01:43 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

I use three speeds and off, so if the MG is going to require a speed setting for "off", then that puts me at four . . .

Myself, I would rather than they just add a toggle setting to allow the speed channel to be proportional, then you can get however many you want. If you have to set a curve to get 0/25/50/75/100, you might as well just set the curve to give the desired speed directly . . .

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
06-26-2008 02:52 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

if you're have a high end radio like a 14mz there is a way to get 3 speeds plus OFF but it will require some programming hacks and a soldering iron. Not sure if its worth it but if you really want those 3 speeds and off, I can explain how to do it.

About the propotional thing you mention... don't forget that speeds are set per LCD so you don't need a tach. If you could adjust headspeed freely in flight you would need a tach to know your exact headspeed and that brings us back to other simple limiters. One reason I like the MG is precisely because you set 2153 rpm and you can be damm sure its going to be 2153 rpm in the air.

Tony


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"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
06-26-2008 03:19 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Ace Dude
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

Quote 
If the interested is there, I'm sure Bob will make it happen however 5 speeds?

As mentioned, that was just an example. It seemed to work out a little nicer than some of the other numbers.



06-26-2008 04:41 AM
 
 
Ace Dude
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

Quote 
Myself, I would rather than they just add a toggle setting to allow the speed channel to be proportional, then you can get however many you want. If you have to set a curve to get 0/25/50/75/100, you might as well just set the curve to give the desired speed directly . . .

You're overlooking the simplicity of the MultiGov. By going to a proportional channel as you describe, you need your TX handy for the setup as well. Then, you need to set/change the RX output in each flight mode for the desired headspeed(s) in that flight mode.

The simplicity of the MG is that once you have the radio setup working you never need to adjust the radio again to change your headspeed. You simply change the headspeed to the one you want in the governor. It doesn't get any simpler than that.



06-26-2008 04:46 AM
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

Simplicity and flexibility do *NOT* typically come together . . . Not being a screaming idiot, I *DON'T* want everything I touch dumbed down . . . I'd rather have the flexibility and take 3 extra minutes in setup myself . . . .

Quote 
About the propotional thing you mention... don't forget that speeds are set per LCD so you don't need a tach. If you could adjust headspeed freely in flight you would need a tach to know your exact headspeed and that brings us back to other simple limiters. One reason I like the MG is precisely because you set 2153 rpm and you can be damm sure its going to be 2153 rpm in the air.

Nope, don't need a tach on a proportional, at least not the way it's done on the ATG. I suggest you actually take a look at an ATG . . . you use the LCD display and it shows the speed you get based on the TX input, which is totally proportional! I have "base" speeds setup linked to my flight mode switch, a mix from the hover throttle knob that allows +/-200 RPM tweaking in flight, in a fixed range, with center being the "set" speed, and another mix on the gear switch that drives the speed channel below the shutdown point to disable the gov, and this functions in any flight mode, and at any speed.

So, to make a comparison, on the ATG, yes, you need the TX to set speeds, but you see it on the LCD just like on the Multigov. Frankly, I would never setup a Multigov without the TX either, since you need to be sure that you can select speeds correctly to verify wiring etc, so I will tend to dismiss that "feature" as invalid - it gives me nothing . . . .

So, as I said earlier in this thread, if Aerospire could give a toggle setting in the Multigov to run proportional with display, then those of us who want flexibility can have it, and if the toggle is off, it goes back to the fixed three speed "dumbed down" mode for those who want that. Heck, on the Multigov, I would be happy if we could just use the spare input channel for on/off . . . . I tend to set my base curves against the gov, so need to be able to drop quickly and easily in and out of the gov in any flight mode, and at any speed . . .

Honestly, I am not trying to plug the ATG in a Multigov thread, but am simply using it as an example, since there are some folks here that still seem to thing that what I want and what I am doing can't be done on a proportionally setup gov, and the example is simply to prove that false . . .

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
06-26-2008 06:03 PM
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

Quote 
if you're have a high end radio like a 14mz there is a way to get 3 speeds plus OFF but it will require some programming hacks and a soldering iron. Not sure if its worth it but if you really want those 3 speeds and off, I can explain how to do it.

Well, I don't fly Futaba, rather preferring my JR 10X, but since I have not found much of anything I can't do on the 10X, I would be interested . . . .

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
06-26-2008 06:05 PM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Its a dirty trick but it works (tested on a RL10 in a scale application... long story). There are only two ways of turning off a governor (like the multigov or any other governor) without using the "off" feature. One is if throttle is below a certain threshold which is basically useless in this case because you want in fact run on curves and the other is if the sensor happens to fail... hum... interesting...what about making the governor think it has failed? On the 14mz you have two non proportional channels (dg1 and dg2) you can use to hook up a basic relais switcher (they sell it for scale boat applications. Costs like $5-$10). What you need is to connect the switcher to the plus/minus of the sensor and program your 14mz to have that channel ON (sensor appears OK) in normal mode with the stick below 25%. This is for the governor to initialize properly. Don't know if the multigov checks the sensor and stays disabled but this will make think everything is fine on bootup. Then you program a mix on a switch so that DG1 goes OFF imediately when you raise your stick in normal mode which will open the switcher, interrupt the signal, trick the multigov that sensor has failed and make it run on your throttle curves. WHen you want to use any of the speeds, just flip into the respective idleup and have DG1 go to ON again which will make the governor think that the sensor suddently is back online and engage.

I didn't test this on a multigov but it should work without a hitch. Be aware that if Bob reads this your warranty is void if something happens to your governor.

Like I said. Troublesome and might not be worth the hassle but it did worked perfectly on a RL10

Tony


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"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
06-26-2008 06:18 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

To run the way I run, it would be even easier - run the switch on the gear channel, and no mixes needed whatsoever. Drop the sensor out to shutdown, and bring it back in to run . . . Let the stick position arm/disarm normally on spoolup/spindown . . . (Bottom line, I hardly ever use the switch to bring in the gov when I take off - it just comes online with spinup, and drops out on spindown . . . well, except when I am tuning, and then will takeoff with it disabled).

I'll have to see if I can find one of those swtiches . . . hopefully, they are not that expensive or heavy - it may provide at least an interim solution. I am still hoping that Aerospire will recognize this minor shortcoming, and correct it in the firmware on the 'Pro . . .

Oh, and can't see why there would be any warrantly implication whatsoever . . . there are no mods being made to the MG whatsoever, just another device plugged into the sensor line (well, at least if you do it with plugs and not just cut the line . . . . ). So, if you have a problem, test without the switch, and if still bad, warranty should be no issue . . .

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
06-26-2008 06:51 PM
 
 
Ace Dude
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

Quote 
Simplicity and flexibility do *NOT* typically come together

That's where the art of design comes into play. Somehow I have a feeling Bob evaluated all the possible options and choose the best one for his product.

Quote 
So, to make a comparison, on the ATG, yes, you need the TX to set speeds, but you see it on the LCD just like on the Multigov. Frankly, I would never setup a Multigov without the TX either, since you need to be sure that you can select speeds correctly to verify wiring etc, so I will tend to dismiss that "feature" as invalid - it gives me nothing . . . .

My point was that you don't need the TX to change speeds on the MG. Once the radio is setup for the MG's three speed options you never have to touch the radio/MG setup again. All you need to do if you want to change speeds is set them in the MG itself.

Lastly, if you want an ATG use an ATG. What's the point in making the MG exactly like an ATG?



06-26-2008 06:59 PM
 
 
Aerospire
Senior Heliman
Location: Honolulu, HI

There is an unused AUX connector on the board. It is not difficult to make that operate as an on/off switch for the governor with some software additions. Neither is it difficult to change the RPM select give proportional RPM variance (at a higher processor impact than just ON/OFF and hit in accuracy).

MultiGov Pro does a lot and the #1 priority is performance. Adding more code impacts performance (whether or not it is noticeable is subjective) so that is why we have it the way it is right now (simpler = faster).

If the dedicated AUX on/off feature is critical for you, e-mail me and I can update your unit with that feature.

bob
06-26-2008 07:03 PM
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

Quote 
Lastly, if you want an ATG use an ATG. What's the point in making the MG exactly like an ATG?

I don't want it necessarily exactly like an ATG, I just use that as an example of something that I think might be an improvement here. As far as the proportional thing, the GV-1 had an interesting way of doing it - the channels were both fixed registers *and* proportional at the same time . . . you set your radio to select S1, S2, or S3 and set a speed on the screen in the GV-1. But how many of you ever noticed that if you vary the value coming out of the radio, that it also varies the speed around that set point? Kinda nice, in that you truly get the best of both worlds, and no added complexity. Those who want fixed speeds just set and forget, as does the MG now. Those who want to tweak can setup the mixes to tune, and not change anything on the gov . . .

Frankly, I think that this would be the best compromise here, if Bob wanted to make a change . . . no added complexity, and adds that feature, which some may regard as a plus.

Just brainstorming here with some ideas to make a great product possibly even better, that's all . . . . and since Bob's listens, I can at least say that he has heard my suggestion, for what it is worth - I can't believe that I am the only one that might actually consider these changes a "plus" . . .

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
06-26-2008 07:51 PM
 
 
tadawson
Elite Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

Quote 
If the dedicated AUX on/off feature is critical for you, e-mail me and I can update your unit with that feature.

I would prefer to do it with a proportional channel, and driving it below cutoff speed, but this would be great as well! Frankly, I am mind blown that you are offering this in the first place . . . says a lot of good things about your business and support!

And honest, I only got the ATG 'cuz you were out of stock pretty much everywhere . . . I just found some things I liked about it . . .

I'll drop you a note . . .

- Tim

The more I touch electrics, the more I grow to hate them . . . .
06-26-2008 07:53 PM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

I was sure Bob would drop by

Anyway, I noticed something really important:

Quote 
(Bottom line, I hardly ever use the switch to bring in the gov when I take off - it just comes online with spinup, and drops out on spindown . . . well, except when I am tuning, and then will takeoff with it disabled).

In that case you don't need squat. The multigov only engages when throttle above X% and with the target speed at Y % (can't remeber the values exactly, would need to check the manual) so you can in fact have 3 different speeds. Once you land in normal mode (ie the mode that has a throttle curve 0-100), the MG will turn off when you bring throttle below a certain value. THe same thing applies when you take off. Only when you're at 80% or something of the target speed will the governor engage so you don't have to worry having a "hot start" and the governor engaging by itself.

Tony


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"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
06-26-2008 08:46 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ErichF
Key Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

Tony,

So the MGP watches the throttle signal and works like the Stick Switch function on the GV-1? Kool beans...
06-26-2008 08:58 PM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Yes. It would be dumm having 3 speeds and be unable to use them all. I thought you wanted to fly around without having the governor engaged and plus 3 different speeds (normal mode plus 3 idle ups).

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
06-26-2008 09:00 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > MultiGov Pro connection of leads
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