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A Main Hobbies . Boca Bearings . Modefo's RC Helicopters

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Beginners Corner > JR 12X: The Answer or Not?
 
 
Smacka
Heliman
Location: Weedville, PA

My Wife is new to heli's. She is building a factory direct T-Rex 600 Nitro Super Pro. She just purchased a JR 12X radio. I have a JR 9303, which I love. It charges overnight, and holds that charge.

Here is what happens with her new 12X. It takes two days to achieve a full charge (yes, 48-hours). After she pulls the radio off the charger, her charge drops by one volt in the first 2-hours.

This behavior seems strange. I know others who have been having charge related issues with the new 12X radios.

Are any of you having similar issues?

Thanks,
Smacka
06-12-2008 02:04 AM
 
 
MJWS
Key Veteran
Location: Airdrie, AB - Canada

It's pretty common for larger nimhs to take a few cycles to come up to capacity and a normal cycle. I wouldn't sweat it at all until 5 cycles or so. The X9303 only comes with a 1500mah pack vs 2000 in hers.

If you have a decent charger cycle it a few times and see what is going on with the pack. The little wall wart doesn't tell you anything and is always going to be slow.

Btw, from your GX45 thread. The motor is an MVVS sold by Horizon under the Evolution brand. The clear line sends the crankcase pulse to the carb so it will pump fuel. Hooks up to the bottom of the carb. Glad to see you found the answer people have been asking that one for years. Have fun with the plane.

Mike
06-12-2008 04:17 AM
 
 
Smacka
Heliman
Location: Weedville, PA

Thanks Mike!!

That 27% Hangar 9 Cap 232G is an awesome bird. The maiden flight was last weekend...the really cool part....no radio trim necessary! It flew like a dream...BUT...BUT...BUT...I am having a really close friend (and trainer) help me settle it down. Because of the fast digital servos I used (and the type aircraft it is), the response time at null is crazy and way over my head to control. I believe we were at 40% negative expo last we flew, and it is still a tad touchy, even at low rates. Of course, some (or most) of that is my inexperience, as well.

At least my trainer can help keep me from stacking it in during take-offs and landings. As I become a better pilot, I can loosen the reigns of this monster.

Thanks again for your input...
Smacka
06-12-2008 04:42 AM
 
 
Eric Giorgianto
Heliman
Location: New Jersey

48 hour to charge???

Hi Buddy, I would call Horizon, as your wife's batt's should not take more than 16 hours max, to charge, period.... Make sure the wall wart charger is the correct charger, and not a NiCad charger, make sure the charger is rated for at least a 1C charge rate, I had the same problem with my 9303, the charger I had was for NiCads and not NiMIh batteries.
Regards Eric G
06-12-2008 01:29 PM
 
 
dhollein
Key Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

Careful with that Cap, they have a tendency to wing tip stall...


As for the 12x, cycle the pack a few times with a good charger to break it in.
06-12-2008 02:25 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
maniatwo
Heliman
Location: hagerstown, MD USA

Well, I hate to sound stupid, but since I am still new and still flying a blade CX 2 I have to ask.

Quote 
She just purchased a JR 12X radio. I have a JR 9303, which I love. It charges overnight, and holds that charge.

Here is what happens with her new 12X. It takes two days to achieve a full charge (yes, 48-hours).


You have to charge them? Mine just uses 4 double A batteries which last for weeks. I am looking at buying my first radio and just from what I have read in here, Futaba and JR seem to be the ones everyone talks about. I am guessing that once you get to the nicer radio's, they are rechargeable? But 12 hours? That seems like a long time or am I missing something?

They say buy the best you can afford. So which is the better of the two? Futaba or JR? Or is it 6 of one half a dozen of the other when comparing the two?

My next Heli will either be a T-Rex 450s or 500, then I want a 600. I figure the 450s would be a great place to start since parts are very easy to find, much less expensive then the 500 or 600 and both of those are still pretty new. I figure I would buy the radio first, then my Heli or is that backwards?

Many thanks for any advice and have a great weekend.

Ty....
06-14-2008 03:16 AM
 
 
lrogers
Key Veteran
Location: Mobile, Al

Both are very nice radios and each has a very loyal and sometimes vocal following. The Spectrum radios are also very nice. Do your home work and research all brands. You can even download the manuals and check out the programing/features. You should also stop by the local flying field and see what the locals are using. That makes it easier to get help if you need it. My observation is that the manuals are all lacking, some more than others. You will also have to decide whether you what to go with the new 2.4 ghz systems or the tried and true 72 mhz ones. I just switched to 2.4 and love it. If you are going to go with a T-Rex, consider the 2.4 ghz, less interference issues.

Yes, the mid to upper end radios have NiCd or Li-ion batteries. Using the standard trickle charger that comes with radios, it takes about 15 hours for a full charge. That can be lessened considerably with an after market charger.

The Futaba 12Z I just got has a 2200 mah Li-Ion battery. Using the included charger, a full charge is only a few hours. I'm getting over three hours run time.

I bought my first radio before I got the helicopter because it was on sale at the time and included a gyro.

Hope this helps.

Larry Rogers - R/C Helicopter Pilot
06-14-2008 03:38 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Smacka
Heliman
Location: Weedville, PA

Maniatwo:

I am about to get flogged for what I am about to say BUT nothing ventured, nothing gained...or...no PAIN...no GAIN!

Your post rasied two issues...one of the Futaba versus JR choice, and an Align 450/500 as opposed to an Align 600.

First, the radio...

I was a true blue Futaba fan in the 80's. Futaba enjoyed the lion share of followers for years...that of being "Top Dawg". But then came JR with the 2.4 GHz system. Futaba fell alseep at the helm while JR ran with the ball. The 2.4 GHz range is UNSURPASSED! You CANNOT get shot down by stray RF or someone else having their head up their arse and turning on their radio on your same frequency and blowing you out of the sky. Futaba has their FASST system...too little, too late. One of the best radio systems ever was the Futaba 14 MZ. A $2100.00 work of art. If you get the 2.4 GHz module to convert it to the new answer, it is a GREAT radio! Here is the down side. While you are set up for 2.4 GHz, you cannot fly 72 MHz band. You have to remove the FM antenna and install the 2.4 GHz antenna. If you have a lot of aircraft on the old 72 MHz system, then stick with your Futaba and get the 2.4 GHz module for all future aircraft. That saves you from buying a new receiver to replace all of the old FM receivers you have in all the other aircraft. If you are just starting out...DO NOT WASTE MONEY ON FM!!!!!! Go straight for the 2.4 GHz frequency and fly with all due confidence. Whether you choose JR or Spektrum, you have great choices. My opinion is that the JR 12X is the cat's meow!

DO NOT scrimp on the radio. Get the best and grow into it. It is the least expensive route to go. No sense in buying multiple radios until you graduate to what you really want.

Now, onto the 450/500 versus 600...

Again, why waste the money?!?!?! You are going to drop of boat load of dollars on the 450 or 500 T-Rex, like it or not. Both these heli's are less stable than the T-Rex 600...electric or nitro version (for the 600). Why buy the interim helicopters, then end up dropping the coin for a T-Rex 600??? That route is going to hammer your bank account.

By the way, when you say 450/500 parts are readily available and inexpensive...well, so is the 600 parts. The 600 is not as "new" as you may think.

Save money and aggravation...go for the T-Rex 600 and the best radio you can possibly afford...2.4 GHz!

Have a great day,
Smacka
06-14-2008 05:44 PM
 
 
maniatwo
Heliman
Location: hagerstown, MD USA

[/quote]Save money and aggravation...go for the T-Rex 600 and the best radio you can possibly afford...2.4 GHz!

Have a great day,
Smacka[quote]

Thanks, I was really hoping someone would say that. I really really really really wanted the T-Rex 600. Once I saw it on the display case next to a little 450, in my mind I knew what I wanted. But from a lack of experience and being so new to the hobby, I was in no position to really make a wise decision.I wasn't sure if it was the old male ego thing, the bigger and more power the better. I did notice that when I hook up the G4 Sims, the larger Helis are easier to fly. Granted that is only a simulator.

As far has parts, I know the blades cost more, but I was looking around at servo's and a gyro,ect.., granted I had no clue what I was looking at or what a T-Rex 600 would need, but I was trying to compile a price list of parts for a T-Rex 450 a 500 and a 600. That is, a set up cost and then what it would cost once I crash. Which we all know will happen. However, back to being new and inexperience I just am not sure what I am looking at. I have called many hobby shops and they have told me the best brands to shop for when it comes to each part. But not for each Heli.

Now the Radio. I asked my local hobby shops, and both have nothing bad to say about Futaba, but both agree that JR is the way to go. And since I will buy from them, it will be nice to have some experts help with set up and questions. The 12x looks pretty sweet, but I was leaning more towards the JR 9303 series. That one I see all the time in this forum. So I am hoping that is a good radio. Granted I have no idea if that is overkill or if that is a perfect selection. I have read about them, but being new and still flying Blade CX 2, most of what I read is Greek to me. I have no idea what I am looking for. I just ordered Ray's HeliTech 9 dvd set and his new book that just came out so I am hoping those will help me better understand the fundamentals and physics of flying. http://rayshelitech.com/osCommerce/full_catalog.php

I looked online and really didn't see much if any difference in price then my local hobby store. Someone posted a site, on here last night, called flyinghobbies.com as a great place for prices. I checked that one as well has 10 other sites and I didn't see much difference then what my local hobby shop had. Not sure why someone would buy online over a hobby store. Not sure how much help a hobby shop would be if you brought in an online Heli and ask them to help you fix it...lol....

Thanks again for your help and feel free to share any advice.
Have a great weekend and happy flying
Ty...
06-14-2008 06:48 PM
 
 
Smacka
Heliman
Location: Weedville, PA

Hi Maniatwo:

Okay, you asked for advice. I'll be bold for just a moment, with your permission. Please join a local flying club. You need to be an AMA member anyway, so you can search the AMA site for a local club. They will be the ones to help you with all of your radio set up questions AND help you to not crash your new "bird". Crashing is not a foregone conclusion (although most seem to state so), so do not get that thought buried in your head or you WILL crash (self fulfilling prophecy). A local flying club will be a great asset. Now, not to say this site (Run Ryder) is not helpful. Just the opposite. There are a ton of great people here at this site, all willing to help. Its just you cannot beat "in-person" help.

About the two JR radios you mentioned. If you feel for one minute that you will "eventually" need more channels, spend it now on the 12X. The 9303 (which I have) is a very nice radio, chock full of goodies. It is a 9-channel work of art, however, the 12X has more channels, more programmability and it is easier than ever to make ANY necessary switch assignments for your personal tastes. You can reassign switches with the 9303 but it is very limited with respect to which switches can be reassigned, etc...

With either radio, please do not overlook the power of having a local flying club available for training/questions. Both radios are wonderful BUT you will have questions and I believe the manuals to be lacking in information in some areas, and down right clustered with too much non-essential information in other areas.

This is where a good old salty Futaba veteran can be of help. They are used to programming ESPECIALLY if they have owned the MZ series of Futaba radios.

My Wife owns the JR 12X and I own the JR 9303. I am jealous of her radio BUT I cannot complain about the way my JR 9303 throws my giant scale aircraft around the sky.

50% of the fun in this sport is doing the research and making the initial purchase(s) of your equipment...


...and it only gets better from there.

Again, have a great day!
Smacka
06-14-2008 07:07 PM
 
 
Smacka
Heliman
Location: Weedville, PA

To All:
By the way, I have cycled my Wife's JR 12X an additional three times since making the original post and have noticed the cycle times getting shorter.

So, it looks as though I was being a nervous nelly. I believe, as was posted by others, that the battery will find its niche and work out just fine.

Later Gators,
Smacka
06-14-2008 07:15 PM
 
 
tauscnc
Veteran
Location: IL : www.cuttingedgecnc.c om

Quote 
You will also have to decide whether you what to go with the new 2.4 ghz systems or the tried and true 72 mhz ones...

I don't even see this as a choice anymore... 2.4 period.

taus
06-20-2008 07:49 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Mutt
Key Veteran
Location: t ca usa

Ahh smacka you say your using a JR radio right?? hmm ok this is your quote.
Quote 
I believe we were at 40% negative expo last we flew, and it is still a tad touchy

Futaba you use negative expo to soften the feel JR uses positive expo to soften it. So if your going negitive on that JR your making it more sensitive to fly.
06-20-2008 08:29 PM
 
 
Smacka
Heliman
Location: Weedville, PA

Mutt:
I just looked closely at the programming and the plots. I do believe you are correct. In the negative direction, the parabolic curve becomes steeper around null. In the positive direction, the parabolic curve lays down more gradual around null.

I do appreciate you pointing that out. No wonder my Cap 232G is bucking up a storm. I put a tighter noose around its nuts.

Thanks again, and have a great day!
Smacka
06-20-2008 08:55 PM
 
 
Mutt
Key Veteran
Location: t ca usa

LOL I know I am correct since I do fly JR and futaba and when I set something up I have to make sure I go the right way for the expo lol. Your manual will tell you too + for softer on a JR and - for more sensitive.
06-20-2008 09:22 PM
 
 
Smacka
Heliman
Location: Weedville, PA

Well, I got her all expo'd correctly. I am flying Saturday morning to check out how she flies. I'll bet she smoothes right down and plays nice in the sandbox with all the other planes

Thanks again for your help. Every so often you have to stub your toe and say, "Ouch, quit it!" Then learn from those mistakes. At least you caught my error before I stacked her into a body bag, eh?

Later,
Smacka
06-21-2008 08:38 AM
 
 
Smacka
Heliman
Location: Weedville, PA

Hey Mutt!!

SUCCESS!!! The Cap 232G flies nice and soft around null now. The expo is set correctly, and she is really tame until you need to haul the mail!

Now, If I can only figure out my "master" "slave" issue between my JR 9303 and my Wife's JR 12X I will be in business...

Thanks for your help!
Smacka
06-22-2008 03:10 AM
 
 
Mutt
Key Veteran
Location: t ca usa

Great glad to hear you got it sorted. When I read your running a JR and had - expo I knew what your problem was right away. I have been flying for over 40 years and every now and then when I setup a new plane or heli I got to double check to make sure I set the expo properly pendant on the radio I am using lol. As far as the slame master on the 12x couldnt tell you but it should be in the manual
06-22-2008 03:20 AM
 
 
Helinutnz
Elite Veteran
Location: below 42 South

from your first post re the NIMH battery.

I find a nixx charge important for the first charge. Personally i hate wall wart chargers. A lot of them are inadequate for the job.

A nixx charge on my pocketlader will charge for 14 hours at 10% of the cap of the battery. So a 2000mah battery will have 2800 mah put into it but seeing as they dont take 2800 mah all it does is bring all cells up to the same fully charged state. Sounds like overcharging but at that rate (200ma) it simply charges the cells....normalises them and does no harm.
The wall warts are cheap and simple and I dont believe a lot of them are 1/10 as capable as a good quality charger.

Then I will discharge to .9 volts per cell under a 300ma load.

Then do one more charge on the normal charge program at 200 ma and let it peak detect to see where it is. It wont take out 2000mah but less than that and often will put back more than 2000 mah back in (simply stated batteries dont take every mah they are charged with so it's not over charging)
Some will stop their chargers at 2000mah to avoid overcharging when in fact they are limiting a full charge.

If a battery is slowing losing capacity.....I'll discharge and nixx charge it and cycle it twice more and often bring the battery back to full health.

Also remember this.
NIMH's peak at lesser voltages than nicads and lose the top of their charge quickly and then sit at certain voltage range for ages and can deplete quickly when near low voltage. A nicad tends to have a more constant discharge rate.

So my 9303 would start at 11.5 volts hot off the charger and within 1 hour it's at 10.5 but takes the next 6 hours to get below 9.8 volts. (2700 mah battery) 80% of the capacity is between 9.8 volts and 10.2 volts.
They behave differently to nicads.
07-30-2008 10:22 AM
 
 
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Beginners Corner > JR 12X: The Answer or Not?
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