rrTV-PHOTO   New HD TV
HOME   rrTV-PHOTO   GALLERIES   MY GALLERY   HELP-FAQ
myHOME PM pmRR MEMBERS 723 ONLINE 21 EVENTS SEARCH REGISTER  START HERE
 
6 pages [ <<    <     1      2     ( 3 )     4      5     NEXT    >> ]2171 viewsPOST REPLY
Heli Wholesaler . 3D Heli Depot . JR-Spektrum

.
.
Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Another plug reading thread?
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
I'm a gasser noob but I can tell you for sure that adjusting the L needle at idle as a dramatic affect on the idle.

Sure it does. And with a couple three engines you might get it right using that technique. Let me know how it works for you.

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-14-2008 03:04 PM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

Now wait a minute,,,,,,
AceDird
Quote 
Hummmm, the low needle has nothing to do with idle as the carb is designed

jschenck post
Quote 
I'm a gasser noob but I can tell you for sure that adjusting the L needle at idle as a dramatic affect on the idle.

Ohhhhhh now it's....
AceDird
Quote 
Sure it does

You have NO clue!!!!

Ace what could be more fun???
Pouring gas all over myself...... and setting myself on fire!!!!

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-14-2008 03:20 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

OK - sure you don't want to adjust your idle speed using mixture. That should be obvious but to say that the L needle has no affect on idle is just not true.

Summary: adjust your L needle for a hover that does not heat up too much then use the trim to adjust for proper idle speed.

...yep...
06-14-2008 03:35 PM
 
 
pgkevet
Veteran
Location: surrey UK

You realise that I'm now totally lost and confused.....

pgk
06-14-2008 04:09 PM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
You realise that I'm now totally lost and confused.....

No need to be confused ... it's written right here.



Peak RPM is the only true fool proof way to set needles. Find the peak and then back off. Zenoah, Walbro, they are all whacked right?

If you are new do what the manufacturers say to start and then dream up your own half baked ideas or short cuts once you first attain success.

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-14-2008 04:26 PM
 
 
Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

BS, these are the same people who say to run premium gas...Its fine to tune like that for a airplane, but you can't peak it in a heli, plus you have to account for the cooling running richer settings..

Bill
06-14-2008 04:37 PM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

This is what I said:

Quote 
the low needle has nothing to do with idle as the carb is designed.

Not this:

Quote 
to say that the L needle has no affect on idle is just not true.

The low needle controls transition. When it is right you can slam the throttle back and forth with no hiccups. The manual gives you a proceedure for setting it. PEAK RPM THEN BACK OFF. When you attempt this procedure you have to make sure the throttle is not open too far to where it starts to bring in the high needle. Typically hover is too far.

If and only if your high is set correctly you can set the low by what you observe in slamming the throttle. This is a judgemental technique. Scientifically the procedure is PEAK RPM THEN BACK OFF.

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-14-2008 04:41 PM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....



I needed the rain to put the fire out!!!

AceDird,, you forgot to tell the newbie to tie down the heli to get max rpm.... ( NEVER TIE YOUR HELI DOWN TO TUNE IT!!!)

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-14-2008 04:48 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
but you can't peak it in a heli, plus you have to account for the cooling running richer settings..

Head loaders alow you to peak a heli. What ever the cooling system is on a heli it is. You could practically mount the engine to a string trimmer shaft, a pump, or what ever that creates and equivalent load and set Peak RPM as long as you didn't change the cooling system that you plan to use in the heli. If you do change the cooling system OR the muffler system then you should redo the needles. Isn't that what you did? Isn't that what you found?

Bill, I respect what you have done for the hobby, I really do but I am going to side with the manufacturers. Newbies can try it your way and if it doesn't work for them they have another way.

WARNING! DO NOT COMBINE TECHNIQUES.

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-14-2008 05:03 PM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

AceDird
Quote 
The low needle controls transition. When it is right you can slam the throttle back and forth with no hiccups. The manual gives you a proceedure for setting it. PEAK RPM THEN BACK OFF.

If you set the L needle for max rpm then back it off,, You WILL burn up a engine,, You don't know what your talking about,, Your going to get some newbie in trouble here,,

The L needles does affect the idle, and transtition. Your right about the part where you say,
Quote 
When it is right you can slam the throttle back and forth with no hiccups.

But to tell someone to set max rpm on the L needle then back it off is



John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-14-2008 05:08 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pgkevet
Veteran
Location: surrey UK

.can i just say that if this was my old car (1969) then I' have used a version of the zenoah manula approach ro carb adjustment - BUT with the engine idling.. reasonable revs set on the idle and then adjust the needle for best rpm at idle. Unless I misunderstand the sections posted of the manual. say nothing about max throttle.. just max rpm

Tha manual does also state that the carbs are factory set foraverage conditions..and I'm in average conditions.

However no-one has really yet exlained why my Preddie engine burbled a few times in level forwards flight rich, lean, too much oil (25:1), too hot etc..

pgk
06-14-2008 06:44 PM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
Unless I misunderstand the sections posted of the manual. say nothing about max throttle.. just max rpm

My buddy has always had a problem understanding the English language. It's peak RPM at a slight elevated idle and then back off. The same is pretty much true with the high. It doesn't have to be WFO. It needs to be high enough to make sure the low needle is not contributing to the mixture. In other words well off the transition point. I feel 3/4 is more than enough.

Quote 
However no-one has really yet exlained why my Preddie engine burbled a few times in level forwards flight rich, lean, too much oil (25:1), too hot etc..

We have certainly got off topic and this one will make it worse.
If you created this topic somewhere else please advise. It will take a lot more input to answer this one.

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-14-2008 07:12 PM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

AceDird

Quote 
My buddy has always had a problem understanding the English language

First off,,, Were not friends, were not buddy's, and were are not pals,, You come here on RR, and post in just about every topic like your someone that really knows everything, You are a "dimwit" in my book,
You want to come on here and tell people like Billme, and myself that have been tuning and running gas engines for 10+ years, that we are wrong, and we will lead a newbie to ruin there engine,, I was a newbie when I started and I listened to Billme back then, and I have never lost a engine due to seizing it up from running it to lean or without enough oil. I'm personally sick and tired of you and your BS posting, and I'm not alone, I get pm's all the time about you, So it's not just me that think your full of crap, Here is what you said:

Quote 
The manual gives you a proceedure for setting it. PEAK RPM THEN BACK OFF. When you attempt this procedure you have to make sure the throttle is not open too far to where it starts to bring in the high needle. Typically hover is too far.

No where in that post do you say
Quote 
slight elevated idle and then back off.
But now you do,,, Now who is confusing people here,, from your first post most newbie's would raise there throttle to get max rpm with out going to far ( on the high needle ) That's not slightly elevated idle, And then you wonder why people get confused??

I'm sick and tired of you coming in and trying to tell me, and other pilots were full of crap, When you can't even fly a heli with out the aid of a co-pilot, and your an expert?? I don't think so, Your a know it all.. that doesn't know crap about crap,

pgk,, I read your post where your engine made you crash, from what you said, in the post, your probley rich, on the H needle, and that's why it was stumbling,, if you were lean, the engine would have stayed up on the rpm before it came down,, If you tune your engine like I, and others have explained to jschenck in this topic, you will do just fine,,


There are two tools that are needed for flying a gas heli, well just about any heli,,,
1: tach
2: temp gun, or some way to get the engine temps..

There is no way to know what your rpm of the engine is without a tach, and you need to be able to see what temps your getting on your heli.... Have a nice day,,, I'm going flying,, (without any electronic flying aid devices on my heli!!!!!) XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-14-2008 09:15 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

Oh MY God!

Xcellgasman, you ABSOLUTELY crack me up with those animated icons, I almost "spit my coffee" as you would say when I saw that angry cloud! Recently you had what looked like Casper the friendly Ghost dancing around in a circle, what did that mean exactly. Looks funny, I just couldn't get what it meant. Where do you get those icons and how do you put them in the posts? They're awesome!

-=>Raja.

1005 Xcell Gas, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
Spectra-g, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
06-15-2008 03:47 AM
 
 
Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Settle down guys, its all fun...Life is to short....

Ace,
There is noway you can load a engine properly using head loaders, at least with the ones I've seen on a gasser...
Bill
06-15-2008 04:28 AM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

I'm fine, Bill, I just get tired of a want-a-be heli pilot posting BS all the time,, Without ever giving any helpffull advice to any topic that he post in, All he can do is try to tell you how you are doing it wrong,, Whu saw!!!!! Had a great time today, I'm thinking I might make a video to show people the sound differance on tunning a gasser,, How many people would benifit or like to see a video post showing how to tune a gasser??? I just might do that,, Then maybe we can put all this to rest??? What do you all think???




John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-15-2008 04:55 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Excalibur
Veteran
Location: Destination: Earth

Thanks John and Bill. I have gotten to the point that intuitively I know the effect of the LO needle on idle but didn't realize I could use it for tuning. Interesting. . . looks like I'm into my next phase of learning to tune a gasser.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore
06-15-2008 05:32 AM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

I went out today and burned two tanks just doing needle tuning. I had the field to myself and a good solid 10-15mph wind. It was about 88 deg. F. I'm just finishing my 2nd gallon of gas with 4oz of Lawnboy.

So, here's my experience: First off I reset my needles to what I thought was about right 1 3/8 L and started off with 1 1/2 on H. I flew it around for a few minutes to warm up the engine. Landed and checked with the temp gun which I remembered this time. About 215 F pointing at the fins from under the carb or under the muffler, up into where the engine shroud is. Doesn't seem hot. Case temp just under the carb is about 145F. I did note that the idle is rougher and lower than my previous flying that I wrote about. I think I may have been just a touch on the lean side of the L needle.

Brought it in for a steady hover in idle-2, about 1800 RPM - GV-1 off. I nailed the throttle and ran it up to about 35' then chopped it to 1/4 throttle (idle up but this is L needle ?) - engine QUIT! so fearing a hot engine I ran over with the temp gun this time and poked it all over. Hottest I found was about 220-230F. Hmm.. so I leaned the H needle just a bit and repeated. It quit again. Started it up and this time I did a full throttle climb to over 100' It didn't seem to sag but it was not picking up RPM either. I tried to fly a couple of circuits at full throttle but everytime I added some cyclic while at full collective I started to bleed headspeed. but I figure I'm getting a good H needle run so I land and check the temp's again. about the same, maybe of to 240 on the fins I can see in front of the exhaust port and carb. so far, good. I know I'm a bit rich on the L needle, I can see some smoke and taste it in the exhaust.

Now, back to the jump/chop. I lean the L needle about a blade width. Idle rpm picks up a bit and smooths out. I try the jump/chop, it bobbles a bit but does not die. Leaned the H needle a bit more and it gets better. Now I have it so that I can jump 40', drop it to 5' and pump it back up - no hesitation. engine temps are staying around 230-250, case temp around 150. Interesting to note that my jump test does create a throttle cut/burble in the first jump after a starting and a steady hover but then it's fine for the rest of the flight, even after hovering. It's almost like it has to clear it's throat from starting. Full throttle sustained climbs and/or circuit still not giving me as much power as think it should have. Now I'm starting to think this may be my engine rpm. since I'm flying a max of 1800'ish I think I'm not in the power band of the Hanson engine. I'm not sure exactly where my needle ended up but they are not too far off from the 1 1/4 and 1 3/8 area. I didn't pull the plug for a picture because I was hauled out of my car and off to a family gathering as soon as I got home, I was a bit late

So, now my fuel is just about gone I need to find a bottle of Amsoil Pro. Burn a few tanks of that - yes I'll do the 'breakin' procedure for the first tank and probably open up the needles a 1/4 turn.

All in all, me - the preddie and the BH26 got to know each other a bit better. Looking forward to trying this with lower synthetic oil content and 12,500 on the engine. I'll try and contain myself by doing one change at a time. I'm starting to think that the 6.28 gears are just too steep for this bird and what I want to fly. Perhaps if I had 690's on it but I want the longer sticks.

...yep...
06-15-2008 06:47 AM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

Oh, one other interesting note. I was leaning the heli over to the side a bit when poking the temp gun around. I did this with the tank very low on fuel at one point and it pulled some air bubbles. The engine picked up dramatically when the air bubbles hit, to the point where the clutch grabbed and I instinctively went for the radio but then a solid feed of fuel came in and it settled back down.

With my nitro burner if it picked up that much RPM I know I'd be way rich. Is there any value in a "pinch the fuel line" test, such as there is for tuning the L needle on nitro engines?

Also, I cleared the carb at the end of the day by pinching the fuel line while it was idling. The idea was to draw all the fuel out of the carb, minimizing the smell in storage. good idea or bad?

...yep...
06-15-2008 06:57 AM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
Is there any value in a "pinch the fuel line" test, such as there is for tuning the L needle on nitro engines?

Absolutely not!

Quote 
No where in that post do you say

They are words my friend. When put in a certain order they mean something. Look right here.



I added the slightly elevated idle phrase just in case the idle was rough to start with so it would stay going.

Quote 
There is noway you can load a engine properly using head loaders, at least with the ones I've seen on a gasser...

Bill that just isn't true. There are many ways to load an engine that would be equal to the blades in hover state. An electric motor, a dyno can simulate the rotor blades under every condition. But two wooden sticks will do just fine for our purposes.

You don't need a thermometer. I have never used one in my life for tuning any engine. BUDDYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-15-2008 02:00 PM
 
 
6 pages [ <<    <     1      2     ( 3 )     4      5     NEXT    >> ]2171 viewsPOST REPLY
Gyro Hobbies . E-flite . Next D

.
.
Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Another plug reading thread?
 PRINT TOPIC Advertisers 

Subscribe to This Topic

Friday, December 5 - 3:42 am - Copyright © 2000 - 2008 runryder.com | email | link to rr | runryder needs cookie