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Futaba-RC . A Main Hobbies . Boca Bearings

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Another plug reading thread?
 
 
rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

Gyro

I also set my gain at 37% on the gyro screen but I set it in 3D mode not F3C as it provides for a better travelling constant pirouette rate if I remember right. As far as the rudder stick, I move it around and such but I never let it go. If I go full speed pirouette I do a gradual stop by slowly releasing it. I just don't like to "beat" on my models and it shows it as they stay together unlike the stick banger guys which you always seem to see crash often.

Keep the abuse down on the gasser and waltz the sky with it. You'll have alot of fun and you can work on all your moves including backwards inverted that you want to learn. Do those high at first, like 200 feet or so. I got confused once trying them in the beginning you should have seen how fast my 1005 fell out of the sky. By the time I figured out my orientation and righted it, I gave full collective and it took like 2 seconds to stop falling and start going up. Luckily for me I was 5 feet too high when I started the manuever, as she stopped 5 feet over the runway before shooting skywards with the full collective. Coming down from 200 feet that fast and stopping a split second before hitting the ground, you can bet I was all shook up!

-=>Raja.

1005 Xcell Gas, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
Spectra-g, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
06-03-2008 05:11 PM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

I hear a lot of RPM variation. Is your gearing right for that headspeed?

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-03-2008 05:56 PM
 
 
rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

Hmmm Ace...

Based on my GR you think I have to run a certain rpm?

-=>Raja.

1005 Xcell Gas, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
Spectra-g, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
06-03-2008 06:35 PM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

Gearing is the stock 6.28, so 10-11k on the engine. My next outing I intend on bumping it up to around 1900, 12k engine. I think you may have just been hearing the carb opening up and possibly doppler effect. The GV-1 was on and I think it was doing it's job.
As far as the tail goes, I was showing it off a bit - one of the other guys there asked about the gyro while I was flying so I showed them what it has. Must have the crown gear mesh pretty close, eh? I agree, I'd rather learn and fly FAI style the SB. This was another part of my decision to go gasser instead of 90 Nitro.
Anyhow it seems as I would like to find more top end power. This will most likely come in as I burn a couple more gallons and I probably shouldn't be in a rush to get there but seems as the GSR I flew last year had more straight up grunt even with a 2-3# (totally made up guess) airframe weight difference and 8# hanging from the skids. Perhaps that is in part due to the gearing on the GSR.

...yep...
06-03-2008 06:56 PM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

Quote 
Perhaps that is in part due to the gearing on the GSR.

And blade length,, 800 and bigger, make allot of differance in climb out,,,

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-03-2008 07:02 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

that's very true - the 810 semi's on the GSR at 1500 RPM have a lot of pull.

...yep...
06-03-2008 07:07 PM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

I finally got to go out and fly for a bit tonight (been dealing with tornado's here) - beautiful weather tonight.

I spent about 1/2 a tank trying to tune a bit. Did some full throttle climbs and it seems to hold RPM pretty good, I didn't here much of a fade.

I did note that when I transitioned to a 1/2 stick from full throttle it'd stumble just a bit so I decided to work on that. My test was bring it into a hover about 2' off the ground then just nail it (full throttle). Once it got up to about 25'-30' I'd chop it down to about 1/4 throttle. WOW, it'd just plain cut out. so I played with the needles a bit trying a bit leaner a bit richer on L, just slightly moved the H needle a bit. Sometimes it got so bad that the clutch would completely disengage, engine stumbling near idle then come back up.

So I'm a bit confused - bad stumble from full throttle to 25% throttle = what (lean or rich?) I think it's lean on the L needle, but when I make it richer it idles rough, noticeable drop in idle RPM and I see some smoke in the exhaust.

On a final note I was noticing the smell of the exhaust. When it was on the leaner side of my adjustment I noted the pollution I was creating smelled more like a majority of the oil was being burnt where when I was on the richer side it smelled like there was a significant amount of unburnt oil hanging in the air

My plug still looks about the same. I'm starting to think that the oil may be flashing which is causing the dry carbon flaky stuff on the edge but it looks like the chocolate look is what we want on the insulator.

Just kicking myself for not taking my temp gun - don't have that info.



...yep...
06-13-2008 04:46 AM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

My rule of thumb,,
1: if it stumbles, = rich
2: if it hesitates,= lean

Sounds like your rich on the H needle, if it is stumbling after you have been to full throttle then comming back down, it's rich and still has unburned fuel, if you were lean, then it wouldn't come back to idle, quickly, it would stay running fast, then slowly start to come down to idle,, Does that make sense??

When your in a hover, and blast full throttle to it, does it go right then?? or does it stumble, or hesitate?? if it goes right as you give full throttle, then your L needle is set close, BUT you could be on the lean side, I would start out with a rich setting on the L needle, so you know it's rich, the start the climbouts, when you get it to transtition good, leave the L needle alone, then hover the heli,, and go full throttle, and listen to the engine, if not stumblein or hesitation, then your really close, but if at the top of the climb out when you back off the throttle, and it goes to stumbling, then your rich on the H needle, If the engine hangs on the the rpm and doesnt come right down, then your Lean on the H needle.. This is how I tune my engines and have for many years,, I hope this helps.. From lookning at the pic, your rich,, Next time take your temp gun and give us some temps... XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-13-2008 05:07 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

Also something else to remember is,,, the L needle is very sensitive.. the H needle is not so sensitive, you might not be moveing the H needle enought to see a differance..

Also,, once you have the L needle set for idle, and smooth transition,, then tune the H needle,, leave the L needle alone,, The L needle has no effect on the H needle at all,, You could close the H needle completely, and it would still start and run up, untill you get the carb on the H needle.. its not like the nitro carb where the two effect each other,, XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-13-2008 05:27 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

Thanks XGM - that helps tremendously. Today is going to be a perfect day here in Omaha but I may not get to fly since my daughter is getting back from a week long trip with my wife's family. finally get to hand the dogs on loan back

I've never had the engine 'hang' onto RPM, when I pull the throttle it drops immediately and stumbles, make sense it's rich. I think I was trying to cure that with L needle adjustments.

I wonder how much of this tuning will change when I go from the 4oz of lawnboy to a lower mix of Amsoil Pro. - I think I'll run the first gallon at 3.2oz and work my way toward 2.5-2.8oz

Really liking this heli now, I was doing some tic-toc's and even when it bogs the engine hunkers down and grunts through it. I'll bet once I have it tuned up on the H side it'll really come to life.

I do think the gears are a bit steep. Thinking of going to a ratio near 6.7 or so, maybe just one pinion size smaller.

...yep...
06-13-2008 02:02 PM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

Quote 
I wonder how much of this tuning will change when I go from the 4oz of lawnboy to a lower mix of Amsoil Pro. - I think I'll run the first gallon at 3.2oz and work my way toward 2.5-2.8oz

I would just go to what ever your going to use full time,, now the first tank or so, will be a little ruff, the engine will need to get rid of the break in oil, and it might run ruff for the first tank, maybe two, but it should smooth out pretty quick, you might have to richen the needles just a little once you change over, and have to retune it, but you know what your doing now, so it will be a piece of cake,, Congrats,, Sounds like your well on your way,, Lets see another video!!!!! XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-13-2008 04:48 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
So I'm a bit confused - bad stumble from full throttle to 25% throttle = what (lean or rich?) I

Well if your high needle is right to begin with and that is the one you set first it should stumble on the low when rich and cut right out when it is lean. If your high needle is wrong to begin with you will probably end up making it more wrong offsetting the transition with the low needle and eventually frying your engine over the long run.

Best of luck.

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-13-2008 05:53 PM
 
 
Excalibur
Senior Heliman
Location: Destination: Earth

Quote 
Also,, once you have the L needle set for idle, and smooth transition,, then tune the H needle,,

John:

I was always taught NOT to tune the LO needle for idle, instead tune it for proper hover (a tail kick every ten seconds or so). This came from Bill Meador and others on this forum. Please clarify - thanks.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore
06-14-2008 05:31 AM
 
 
Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Xcal,

Once you get the hang of tuning, you begin to notice the effects of tuning in other areas..Example would be that you know you have your hover tune great, then you listen, and get use to how it idles, and comes up to speed..You start to relate these items to a good tune hover..
What you have learned is correct. Myself, I can tune just listening to the idle...Sometimes engines will come up dirty, but be ok at hover..Sometimes you have to lean a little more to make it right at hover. Each engine will be a little different because of the carbs, plus the engines are not blue printed is the reason for the variations..
Bill
06-14-2008 06:17 AM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

Quote 
John:

I was always taught NOT to tune the LO needle for idle, instead tune it for proper hover (a tail kick every ten seconds or so). This came from Bill Meador and others on this forum. Please clarify - thanks.

Smooth idle, and SMOOTH TRANSITION,, your right about just Idle, but I'm saying,,, good idle, and smooth transition... from a rich setting,, Always error on the rich side,,I guess that I should always add this too... I don't want anyone to ruin a engine, cause they didn't understand me, or I didn't add something to my post,, (Sorry)

Yes if it hovers on the L needle,,Your right about being in a hover, and getting a tail kick, or burble from the engine about every 10 to 15 sec. but if you get a good idle, and smooth transition, then you will be close at hover if you hover on the L needle,, Try it some time,, and I'll bet your needle will be just about the same as if you tune it for hover,, , so please just go try it,, Make sure where your needle is, then change it to rich, then tune the L needle for smooth ldle, then give it some throttle, if it stumbles, then your rich, if it hesitates, then your lean,, adjust the L needle till you get a smooth transition, and then hover your heli,,, if you have a nice idle, and good transition, then you will be close on the hover,, Try it,, Please, then you will know what I'm talking about,, You might have to tweak it a small amount, but very small,,

Yes you can always just hover your heli and adjust your needle till you get your kick every 10 to 15 seconds, but you will be up and down with the heli, several times, my way, you get it set quickly and easily on the ground then hover it, Like I said, you might be a smidgen off, but not much,, I hope this make some sense to you all..

Bill Meador taught me how to tune a engine about 10 years ago, and I have NEVER lost a engine yet,,

Maybe I have been doing this so long, that it just comes second nature to me, and I can tell from ear when I'm close, and I know a newbie won't be able to do it as easy as I do, so maybe I should not post about how I tune a engine, Cause the last thing I want is for anyone to burn up there engine, by reading what I post, then trying it, and having terrible results.. That's not what I want to see happen,, XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-14-2008 06:34 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

Dang Bill you beat me!!! I was going to call you in the morning to go over this to make sure I wasn't leading someone down the wrong road,, Thanks.. XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-14-2008 06:35 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

All the things that I have taught was just a foundation for the newbie to hopefully have a good start...


Talk about tuning, this fan test was something I haven't done in years as far as setting the needles...It was very hard for me to do this, because i know in the past that once you go that lean on the low, you can't go back..
I always thought it was because of the ring getting to hot, but in this case, the temps are so low, I can't blame it on heat, but yet, if I go back to my needle settings, its not the same...
I wish I had done it the back-door way first to prove this point... That would be to tune the high 11/8, and leave the low rich, then go to Wallys needle settings....

The tuning is easy though with his setup, once the low is set, you just move the high to get the color plug you want...The high is around 13/4s area...Once thats set, the transition is automatic, as it seems...As I learn more, I will pass it on
Bill
06-14-2008 12:02 PM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Hummmm, the low needle has nothing to do with idle as the carb is designed. The low is designed for a smooth transition from a correctly set high needle. The idle is set normally on a garden implement by an idle stop screw which most of us don't use. We use the servo position (trim) to set idle.

If you set the needles correctly it doesn't matter where hover is, meaning which needle contributes more during hover. That condition changes as you add weight to the heli and consume more power. The hover point of a 13 pound heli is no where near the hover point of a 20 pound heli with the same engine. The same goes for elevation, the hover point at sea level is not the same as the hover point at 5000 ft. Sorry Bill, tuning for hover is wrong in my book especially for a newbie. Maybe after 20 years you can get it right every time but a newbie is likely to go through a couple of engines before he/she gets it right. Many people are following these procedures and burning up engines. I know they are not listening to me. Until they toast one.

Ace
What could be more fun?
06-14-2008 02:37 PM
 
 
jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

I'm a gasser noob but I can tell you for sure that adjusting the L needle at idle as a dramatic affect on the idle. Try it sometime, sitting at an idle with about 1 1/2 on the L needle then turn it in slowly to 1 1/8 - rpm will double.

I hope to get some flying today - I'll post my results.

...yep...
06-14-2008 02:50 PM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

Thank you jschenck,, I was just about to post reguarding AceDird post, but comming from you shows just how (One Gallon Expert) he really is,, You are correct, If you have a heli idleing, and change the L needle either WAY it will effect how it idles, Yes we use the trim to hold our idle, but thats it!!!!!! XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
06-14-2008 03:02 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Another plug reading thread?
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