rrTV-PHOTO   New HD TV
HOME   rrTV-PHOTO   GALLERIES   MY GALLERY   HELP-FAQ
myHOME PM pmRR MEMBERS 685 ONLINE 26 EVENTS SEARCH REGISTER  START HERE
 
9 pages [ <<    <     1      2     ( 3 )     4      5     NEXT    >> ]5509 viewsTOPIC CLOSED
Futaba-RC . A Main Hobbies . Boca Bearings

.
.
Aerial Photography and Video > CAA new regulation proposals
 
 
Hogster
Key Veteran
Location: Surrey, UK

This is an extract from my email to Chris:

I notice there is to be a £200 fee "to prepare an application for a Permission" for "multiple UAS operations". Does this mean that once a Permission has been granted (for a year I assume?), the operator can undertake as many operations (or in my case, aerial photography sorties) as he chooses, provided he follows any conditions specified in the Permission? Do you have an example of a Permission which I could look at, so I can see what sort of conditions would have to be followed?

So far as I can see, recreational use of model aircraft / helicopters will still continue unabated, but am I right in thinking that as soon as a digital camera is fitted to say, a model helicopter, the operator is then bound by these new regulations as the 'aircraft' is now being used for "aerial work" and is "equipped to undertake surveillance or data acquisition"? I know a very large number of people who take aerial photographs with model aircraft / helicopters purely as a hobby. If I understand them correctly, these new regulations will completely crush this relatively new branch of aero-modelling and make many R/C enthusiasts very unhappy. Shouldn't there be a demarcation between commercial and personal use of these "UAS"s? I cannot understand why a model aircraft fitted with a digital camera and flown for fun should require any more regulation than a normal model aircraft flown for fun, provided the standard guidelines for model flight as laid down by CAP 658 and the BMFA and are adhered to.


That would be a starting point at least.

Cheers,


David
06-10-2008 03:30 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: Ruined UK

Keith Dodson (CAA)is in the room, what's the question? I'll try and find him. Patrick

Ask him why the CAA has decided its remit is now to control photography and data gathering.

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth
06-10-2008 03:57 PM
 
 
lib435
Heliman
Location: UK

sent my e-mail to chris on 02/06/08

A thousand nuts and bolts all flying in formation, untill one decides to leave and the rest follow.
06-10-2008 05:04 PM
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

In the UK, aircraft that are not regulated by EASA are subject to the Air Navigation Order (ANO). The ANO requires all aircraft to have certificates of airworthiness except for those that are specifically excluded.

One category that needed to be excluded was model aircraft. For that reason the ANO includes a definition of small aircraft as being under 20 kg, which is not subject to certification. Later, some individuals wanted to take and sell pictures, which is Aerial Work. So the rule was changed to require permission of the CAA if the aircraft is over 7 kg. This was always seen as an interim solution.

All this happened many years ago.

5 years ago at this Paris conference I gave a presentation and I was asked why the CAA does not regulate at the lower weights. At the time I said that we had not identified a safety need, BUT if we found that significant numbers of aircraft were likely to be operated regularly in close proximity to people or property, expect that position to change!

Now, the situation has changed. In the last year, aircraft such as the microdrone have appeared and the police services and others, including the Paparazzi, want to use them. We have therefore identified the need to regulate to protect the public.

We have looked very carefully at the rule change because we must avoid applying greater regulation to model aircraft flyers. (They are not a concern because he whole point of model flying is to fly close to yourself, with no interest in operating near third parties).

We have looked at categorising by commercial use, but that does not work in all cases. For example an organisation taking pictures and using them for its own purposes (including the police, security companies private detectives etc) is not necessarily within the definition of Aerial Work.

We therefore settled on the main difference between UAS and model aircraft, which is that UAS take pictures or acquire data. That is why the proposal is written as it is.

Is the intention to regulate small aircraft that are going to take photographs to sell? Yes it is. And the reason is to protect the public from a proliferation of such activities without appropriate safeguards.

We do not envisage a complex or burdensome regulatory structure, nor a punitive charging system. It will be necessary for those who want to carry out such activities to apply for permission and to provide justification that what they intend to do will be safe, through the definition of operational procedures (such as minimum distances from buildings and 3rd parties appropriate to the characteristics of the aircraft). The permission will be conditional on the agreed procedures being adhered to.

For model flyers who want to take pictures for their own enjoyment it will simply be necessary for their model association to agree the constraints with the CAA. We should then be able to issue one permission for all members of the association to take pictures within those constraints. We would expect these to be similar to, if not identical to, those that we currently attach to exemptions for models flown by the Large Model Association (i.e. above 20 kg).


C.Whittaker
CAA
06-10-2008 05:52 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

Well, there you have it.
06-10-2008 05:54 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Badllarma
Senior Heliman
Location: North West UK

So in order for these changes to go through I take it there will be an act of parliament ??
I take it you are proposing to change the actual law? In which case I would like to know when the bill is entering debate.

Because reading the above statement you representing the CAA seem to give the impression it is all cut and dried
06-10-2008 06:35 PM
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

I just check the conditions specified for the LMA > 20Kg exemption.

http://www.largemodelassociation.com/over20kg.htm

Is this serious ?. A 'Certificate of Design and Construction' ?. A pilot who must complete a minimum of 1 hour under examination before the flight test log can be completed ?.

All this for a sub-7Kg heli hovering at 100 feet over field ?. Where is the safety justification for that ?.

If these are the 'easier' conditions for recreational flying then we can all close up shop if they become the rule.

Earlier in the post, it sounded like each operator would just have to write down the equipment he uses and some procedures he will follow while he is operating. These will be considered by the CAA on a case-by-case basis and permission granted accordingly. This sounded quite reasonable but the later bombshell shows that we can make no meaningful comment on the proposal unless we know specifically what will be required.

So - can we have an answer to one question:

What are the key points the CAA will insist upon before any permission is granted to a company or individual to operate a sub-7Kg vehicle performing aerial services ?.


JohnC
06-10-2008 08:09 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

Quote 
A 'Certificate of Design and Construction' ?. A pilot who must complete a minimum of 1 hour under examination before the flight test log can be completed ?.

- Welcome to the real world; looking more like operating a full size every day!
06-10-2008 11:01 PM
 
 
ki-gas
Senior Heliman
Location: All over Europe

SO! Who is patrickegan and how does he know so much?

What is C. Whittaker's position at the CAA?

I amazed how readily people are willing to believe what pat is saying without asking any questions.

So it looks like the police may be exempt from requiring a permission but will have to operate under an AOC, the only reason I can see to put the police in a different catagory is because virtually all their flying will be done near or over people, if it were not for people the police would not need a camera. So what I'm getting at is, will the police get authoisation to fly over people......surely not!
06-10-2008 11:29 PM
 
 
BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Patrick Egan has been a prominent figure in RCAPA. He recently attended the FAA ARC meeting In Washington DC representing RCAPA (and by extension, RC AP operators), and is right now attending the UAS 2008 - Unmanned Aircraft Systems 10th International Conference & Exhibition in Paris also representing RCAPA. So he had the opportunity to buttonhole the bigwig from UK's CAA and immediately pass on questions raised here on RR. Fantastic work Patrick!

You can read his blogs at the RCAPA Reporter website http://members.tripod.com/wcs_bbs/reporter/id3.html

He will be making a 20 minute presentation on RC AP to this body during the convention, which can't hurt our cause.

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
Trex 450,
8 & 13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites
06-11-2008 12:46 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

Chris Finningan is back from his holiday today and he is the man named as the point of contact for this.

We should wait for his reponse, and anyone who gets some first hand information should post it here.

I suggest we keep RCAPA and their input out of this for now. I've read enough from other posts containing argument and accusations from both sides of the fence in the USA, each with it's own vested interests, to know we don't want that here right now.

JohnC.
06-11-2008 08:02 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

John, I certainly understand your position, but I believe the post above "signed by" C Whittaker is actually a direct response from a senior CAA official who was approached by Patrick Egan in Paris at the UAV convention. This would appear to be entirely different from an opinion from RCAPA.

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
Trex 450,
8 & 13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites
06-11-2008 08:17 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
patrickegan
Veteran
Location: Sacramento, CA

Tony,

You are correct! Mr. Whittaker himself typed that response on my laptop. That is his direct response to the questions posed. (a picture will be posted of them on the Reporter site) He and Mr. Dodson took a look at the thread and mused at some of the statements. We had a short but candid conversation, “if you want to do this you will have to show safety certification!”

None of this is my opinion (unless otherwise stated), but reporting of the events and presentations I’ve witnessed.

Live from UAS2008, Patrick Egan
06-11-2008 08:50 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: Ruined UK

I guess its time to write to your local MP.


Thanks for your help Patrick.

snip...
For model flyers who want to take pictures for their own enjoyment it will simply be necessary for their model association to agree the constraints with the CAA. We should then be able to issue one permission for all members of the association to take pictures within those constraints. We would expect these to be similar to, if not identical to, those that we currently attach to exemptions for models flown by the Large Model Association (i.e. above 20 kg).

So the BMFA will have to certify us, inspect our craft (even for a little 350g FP heli with a spy cam), monitor it for an hours flight time etc etc, make us create flight logs, not change the craft in anyway or require re-inspection etc all for a snap or two for fun from our club field.. but we 'can' go loopy loo 3d with a Raptor 90, with cheapola blades and dodgy old RC gear and that’s ok, as its not as dangerous to the public as the deadly FP?

Is that right or am I miss interpreting?

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth
06-11-2008 12:09 PM
 
 
BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Without going through all of it, I believe the one hour's flight time is only related to obtaining permission to carry out display flights in front of the public. If this is the case, it doesn't sound unreasonable, as you wouldn't want to find out design or manufacturing flaws while near a large crowd.

Tony Stott
Scenefromabove.com.au
Trex 450,
8 & 13.3m mast
AP hot air balloon
AP kites
06-11-2008 01:18 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: Ruined UK

Hope so Tony

Wonder if EU AP'ers will be subject to the same rules.

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth
06-11-2008 02:14 PM
 
 
Bell Bloke
Key Veteran
Location: England

Well Chaps it's great to see people getting stuck in on this subject, the more we have the more chance of freedom we will have!
Here's hopeing from a free democratic nation where people are born free and are able to speak and move freely and where your vote really counts.

And if all else fails, at least we can say we tried................
06-11-2008 05:35 PM
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

Mr Pigs,

It seems from the post by Mr Whittaker that your statements are correct.

However, to justify those measures on the basis of safety alone does not stand up to any argument at all. We can only hope that he meant the principle of the exemption, not the letter.

I am waiting for the official response before making any comment : we don't know who is making the decision at this point.

I assume that 'aquire data' means just that. It means any equipment like wattmeters, glitch counters, governors which show max/min RPM's or anything at all which can show any data as a result of the flight will be illegal. Even my Jazz ESC which will flash a certain number of times if had been overheating in flight will also fall into this category.


JohnC
06-11-2008 06:26 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Bell Bloke
Key Veteran
Location: England

And Spectrum Radio
06-12-2008 12:21 AM
 
 
pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: Ruined UK

IMO they are only interested in controlling photography and sound i.e. information the media could use, and the safety issue is just a smoke screen. Why else start at ZERO kilos? i.e. I have a camera UAV the size of a housefly..oh sorry, you cant fly it unless you tell us where and when, and give us all your details...hmm big brother nanny state needs to know, in case your looking at something you shouldn’t be. I know the CAA are not supposed to be linked with the government, but seeing as all the heads are Ex forces its not hard to put 2 and 2 together.
If they come back with the reply that they only want to know a list of operators and equipment, and not where and when its flying, then perhaps its fair enough, we will have to see.
Maybe I'm just being paranoid.

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth
06-12-2008 11:22 AM
 
 
9 pages [ <<    <     1      2     ( 3 )     4      5     NEXT    >> ]5509 viewsTOPIC CLOSED
Modefo's RC Helicopters . XHELI.COM . Autography FlightPower

.
.
Aerial Photography and Video > CAA new regulation proposals
  UPDATE SCREEN   PRINT TOPIC Advertisers 

Subscribe to This Topic

Thursday, October 16 - 3:48 am - Copyright © 2000 - 2008 runryder.com | email | link to rr | runryder needs cookie