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Futaba-RC . Fast Lad Performance . Esprit Model

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Engines Plugs Mufflers Fuel > heehee hee YOU better do something OS !!!
 
 
StillTryin
Senior Heliman
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Thank you dkshema The photos could be one of my bearings.
I think you have shown that the problem is caused by the physical battering the bearing receives. To my mind, this information should at least put to bed the ideas of after-run oils and running the engine dry at day's end at least.

Some questions which remain include:
Is there adequate lubrication esp. with low viscosity oils?
Is the combustion process too violent(too much nitro)?
Is the bearing just too small in this environment?

Perhaps the 50 sized helis should start sporting a larger capacity engine, say a 75.
05-10-2008 06:31 AM
 
 
tadawson
Key Veteran
Location: Lewisville, TX

I would think that preignition/detonation could also be a factor here . . . any thoughts?

- Tim
05-10-2008 06:35 AM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

very well done dkshema !!,, but 1 thing your quotes failed to mention,, is,, if you had 2 bearings of the same size and quality operating under the same conditions, and one bearing was preloaded correctly but the other was not preloaded correctly most likely 1 bearing will last longer than the other..



""I would think that preignition/detonation could also be a factor here . . . any thoughts?""

yes Tim, I have wondered this often, maybe the problem is as simple as the OS 50 has to much compression and we need to run a differnt plug or less compression or less nitro,, some food for thought on that, I don't remember reading bearing complaints before the Hyper 50 head was introduced..

Jim
the wife wont let me get a Monkey !!,,, damm, can't have anything
05-10-2008 09:05 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Quote 
Stop stuffing them with 30% nitro and running them at 19500 rpm. I bet your bearings will last

I bet they will not

Never had a bearing failure after 3 years of use. This includes 3 Hypers, a YS91ST, a YS50 and a OS50-SX. I trash them as good as I can, sometimes run them lean, sometimes I run them till the end, sometimes I don't, never put after oil.

Every time I've changed a bearing it was because I was working on something else and decided to swap it just in case.

I must be special I know lol

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
05-10-2008 12:54 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
wileyeco
Heliman
Location: owosso mich usa

bearing failure

in the old days when you had os 61 with shadel liner/piston i used to run extra castor oil in the fuel, never did i see a bearing fail. that os was so hot i could start it with out glow power.
OS MAKES GOOD ENGINES.......
05-10-2008 01:02 PM
 
 
GMPheli
Veteran
Location: W. Bridgewater, MA USA

The rear bearing is just too small for the task. All OS needs to do is put in a bigger one like they did with the OS 61. Bigger bearing = more surface area for the load. From the pics I have seen it looks like there is room in there for it. These pics are from the OS61SF

05-10-2008 03:42 PM
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Quote 
I don't remember reading bearing complaints before the Hyper 50 head was introduced..

My 50 SX-H goes through rear bearings about as often as my Hyper. It's not the head.

-----

About preloading -- from the limited reading I've done in the past couple of days, it would appear that in order for preloading to be a useful practice, the bearings themselves need to be designed FOR having a pre load put on them. I recall seeing something about the balls and races needing to be designed for the task.

Further, it appears that unless you really do the pre-load correctly, bearing life can actually be shortened, as you build up heat in the balls and races.

-----

Perhaps yet another contributing factor would be the heat seen by the motors. As with most other man-made items, heat is not your friend. Thermal expansion, the delta between the temperature of the outer race vs the inner race and the effect of heat upong the bearing steel itself all can have detrimental effects upon bearing life. This would also make the "Coke can" mod a dicey fix, as first of all, the bearing may not be designed for a pre-load, you really don't know if the thickness of the shim is correct, and you have no real control over thermal expansion and temperatures of the bearing.

-----

More reading about ball bearings indicate that these little beggars are actually pretty finicky about how they are treated throughout their life. It would appear that the races are easily damaged, and the damage does not have to be severe to limit their useful life.

-----

I believe that the bearing is simply being asked to support way too much of a radial load due to the forces on the piston, rod, and crank caused by the combustion process.

-----

Mr. OS had to make a compromise when the 50 SX-H was introduced. He was constrained by the need to retain the outside dimensions of the 46 crankcase while being asked to dramatically increase the horsepower of that same basic motor. The YS 50 people, and even the TT Redline folk both see the need to retain those same outer dimensions (to remain as a viable alternative to the OS). The size constraint, coupled with the need to produce gobs of power force a compromise in the design.

Take a design that is less than robust due to market constraints, then sell into that market where people start running 30% nitro coupled with aftermarket exhaust systems that extract even more horsepower from the powerplant, the weak link will be revealed again and again.

That link is the rear bearing. Probably not by choice, but because it's the result of a compromise between good engineering practice and market forces.

-----

The bottom line would appear to be that we will continue to have rear bearing problems in the high performance 50's, and we simply need to learn how to identify the need to replace the darn thing before it gets puked out the exhaust port.

-----

* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
05-10-2008 04:48 PM
 
 
Rymps
Senior Heliman
Location: Windsor CO

I wonder if any one makes a needle bearing that will fit the hyper 50? Ball bearings are good for certain applications, but in this case i would think a needle bearing would be better. (at least for the rear bearing) It has more surface area to take the load of the crank. There should not be too much crank movement up and down so why not try a needle bearing? This is the threory for the crank in your cars engine. You can use the outer bearing to stop the up and down movement. Has anyone thought about this?
05-10-2008 05:41 PM
 
 
GMPheli
Veteran
Location: W. Bridgewater, MA USA

"Mr. OS had to make a compromise when the 50 SX-H was introduced. He was constrained by the need to retain the outside dimensions of the 46 crankcase while being asked to dramatically increase the horsepower of that same basic motor."



There is plenty of room in there for a bigger bearing. However OS would probably have to make a new casting $$$$$
05-10-2008 05:56 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

edited

I do NOT believe the bearing is to small !, look at the SKF bearings in the links, the load ratings are,,

Dynamic Load Capacity (Pounds): 906
Static Load Capacity (Pounds): 459

also look at the prices in the 2nd link, these are no cheap bearings,,

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRI...405252&PMT4NO=0

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/N2DRV...000054900773<;br

I am also starting think that these NTN bearings are a cheaper brand, I have bought my fair share of bearings before and I have never heard of NTN other than for RC applications, the bearing shops up here just don't sell NTN barings

and another thing Boca does NOT tell you who makes their bearings..

Jim
the wife wont let me get a Monkey !!,,, damm, can't have anything
05-10-2008 09:24 PM
 
 
Divot
Veteran
Location: Mesa, AZ

Quote 
About preloading -- from the limited reading I've done in the past couple of days, it would appear that in order for preloading to be a useful practice, the bearings themselves need to be designed FOR having a pre load put on them. I recall seeing something about the balls and races needing to be designed for the task.

Preload is clearance nothing more.
05-10-2008 09:43 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

""Preload is clearance nothing more.""

well yes,, but too much preload or too little preload and a bearing will fail faster..

Jim
the wife wont let me get a Monkey !!,,, damm, can't have anything
05-10-2008 09:52 PM
 
 
Rymps
Senior Heliman
Location: Windsor CO

NTN and SKF are major brands of bearings. They supply the auto industy with all kinds of bearings. NTN and SKF are competitors of each other.(like Chevy and Ford) The both make wheel, transmition, and rear end bearings. Both companies are well respected around the world. I beleive NTN bearings are made in Europe. SKF has a plant and a research place here in the States. They both make good quality stuff.

I beleive you will see the TT and YS motors to start having the same bearing problems. I will just take time for it to show up here in the posts. The problem is not the bearing, but the type of bearing and what we are putting it through. Race car bearings are rebuilt or replaced very often for the same reason the rear bearing gets replaced in the OS engines.
05-10-2008 10:00 PM
 
 
Divot
Veteran
Location: Mesa, AZ

Quote 
well yes,, but too much preload or too little preload and a bearing will fail faster..

I believe this is the biggest factor of bearing failure in the OS.

Fuel type, bearing type, etc... has a nominal effect in contrast to preload.
05-10-2008 10:15 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

Rymps,, see Timbers's 2nd reply on the 2nd page in the link,, a bearing should last more than just a couple flights, I do know a guy I fly with had a rear bearing go bad in his Hyper 50 in 1 gallon, mine was 2.6, I know others guys I fly with that have 10 or 12 gallons on their Hyper 50s, all these guys have been flying close to 20 years each and they know how to tune,,

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t429301p2/

Jim
the wife wont let me get a Monkey !!,,, damm, can't have anything
05-10-2008 10:21 PM
 
 
lightningrc
Key Veteran
Location: UK

Rymps thats a good idea about the roller bearings wonder if theres one available in the same size ??
05-10-2008 11:34 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nivlek
Elite Veteran
Location: Norfolk England

I have looked in the past , but didn't find anything . Having said that , I haven't had any real problem with bearing failures ,my OS 50 heli engine has now done three seasons on its original bearings , but I have had to replace a set in one of my OS 50 aero engines .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .
05-10-2008 11:49 PM
 
 
Rymps
Senior Heliman
Location: Windsor CO

the Wasp, I am not saying that there are not bad bearings or bad production runs. I would send the motor back to OS if I got 1 gallon threw my motor.

I believe the crank should have a shoulder on it to go against the front bearing, not the rear bearing. If you do that than most engineering practices say you need a spacer to go between the two bearings to take the load, but how will the fuel get in the motor? That is why I think the rear bearing should be a roller and the crank should shoulder the front bearing. That way there is no preload on the bearings making them last longer. Besides you can get a good size roller bearing in the rear with in the same space.

The preload on the nut can put more stress on the rear bearing than people know. How tight dose the preload need to be? On a 600N that has a clamp you don't need to get the nut on as tight as it will go. On a Raptor you screw the fan down and lock it on with the nut, not tighten the fan on to the crank as hard as possible.

Just my thought. What do you think?
05-11-2008 12:04 AM
 
 
Divot
Veteran
Location: Mesa, AZ

Quote 
That is why I think the rear bearing should be a roller and the crank should shoulder the front bearing. That way there is no preload on the bearings making them last longer.

You confusing preload with thrust load. Preload is the clearance
between the bearing and the adjacent housing/case/crank.
In the case of our engines...how much lateral movement is the bearing
allowed to moved on the crankshaft.

It is true however if the preload is huge, you will then start to cause a trust load on the radial bearing. With our engines
you most likely would not be able to reassemble the engine.

The problem with the Hyper's is the lack of preload.
05-11-2008 12:44 AM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

The crank does not bottom out against the rear bearing,the crank tightens up against the inner race of the front bearing.
05-11-2008 01:43 AM
 
 
13 pages [ <<    <     1     ( 2 )     3      4     NEXT    >> ]5871 viewsPOST REPLY
Thunder Power RC . Real Raptors . Mikado Modellhubschrauber

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Engines Plugs Mufflers Fuel > heehee hee YOU better do something OS !!!
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