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Radio - Spektrum DSM > Update Spektrum firmware at home??? (part2)
 
 
village_idiot
Senior Heliman
Location: Land of confusion

Somewhere there is a part one to this thread started by another person, but here is part two. I'm about as close as I expect to be able to get, but I have proved 2 things:

#1 you can talk to the MCU from the servo pins
#2 you can talk to the MCU with a cheap $25 programmer

Would it be worth $25 to you to be able to update at home? I'm a third of the way there right now in postage, and I have a second batch to send which would get me really stinking close to that same $25. For the guys in Australia and New Zealand it could probably be recouped in a single exchange and would be FAR faster. I think it is time to put the pressure on Spektrum/Horizon to allow this, and yes I do understand what is at stake here. Other companies have done this and you don't see them going out of business from code theft (Castle to name one).

Anyway, here is the thread:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858932
05-04-2008 05:04 PM
 
 
alfred
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia, New South Wales, Mid North Coast

I would buy one !!!!
I have got three AR7000 and 4 satellites that need the quick connect upgrade and the signal fades etc future.
05-05-2008 10:08 AM
 
 
hrosee
Senior Heliman
Location: Richardson, Texas

There is more that just software update s done when you send in a receiver. In my case they put on all new cases with the antenna supports and replaced one remote receiver that was not up to par.

Very quick turnaround at about 2 weeks including shipping. Just don't send them in all at once so you have something to fly.


DX6 & DX7
2 - Raptor 50's V2
TREX 450SE
Swift 16
TREX 500
TREX 600N
05-05-2008 01:30 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
alfred
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia, New South Wales, Mid North Coast

Just one slight problem.
We are on the other side of the Globe.
Not quite the same thing as living in the same country.
05-05-2008 01:42 PM
 
 
village_idiot
Senior Heliman
Location: Land of confusion

As I said on RCGroups, this may not be for everyone. Those that are happy sending there stuff back to Horizon are still more than welcome to do so and any device that is suspect SHOULD be sent back for repair. But for those that are interested, it would be nice to have the choice, what would it really cost them to put the firmware (all 8K of it) onto their website. They already have the site and already make updates to it as needed, so just pushing the firmware up and creating a link can't be that hard. Bandwidth shouldn't be that big of a concern since they are only 8K files for each receiver, some of their pages are probably over 8K of HTML.

And they don't even have to make and sell the programmer if the Cypress device that I have works, it was $25 from Digikey and the software is free from Cypress. That takes all the burden away from Spektrum and gives Cypress a little more exposure (they have a neat IDE that I need to look at in more depth for a few projects).
05-05-2008 02:30 PM
 
 
Futura SE
Senior Heliman
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas

If you think they are going to publish their software for all their competiors to see you are crazy.

Get real,

Norman
05-05-2008 03:15 PM
 
 
village_idiot
Senior Heliman
Location: Land of confusion

Hasn't hurt Castle Creations one bit. Hasn't hurt XPS one bit. If I look I can probably find other examples.

If the cloners really wanted it, they would find a talented individual to hack it out, there are many ways to do this and would probably only take a good person 1 day to accomplish it. I'm not that good so I my never get it hacked, but that doesn't mean I won't keep working at it until the firmware is available. Once it's available there is no need to continue working to hack it (at least for me).

And maybe you should "Get real".
05-05-2008 03:25 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: Town of California in the state of Maryland

> If I look I can probably find other examples.

Futaba, Mikado, Multiplex, Thunder Power, Skookum

- John

Logo 14 -- Logo 10
05-05-2008 03:55 PM
 
 
nmrs
Senior Heliman
Location: Austin, TX

Quote 
If you think they are going to publish their software for all their competiors to see you are crazy.

This isn't really too much of a concern. No one is asking them to publish the source code to their firmware, just the compiled binary, which really isn't all that useful to an attacker/competitor. This is really no different from downloading drivers for any of the hardware installed on your computer or new firmware for your router or other devices.
05-05-2008 05:02 PM
 
 
pgoelz
Senior Heliman
Location: Rochester MI

As much as I would REALLY like to see this happen, I understand why it may never come to be. Think of the liability / warranty / reliability issues for starters. And unless the receiver has separate non-volatile boot loading code, it is very possible to "brick" it with a failed upload.

When you "talk" to the micro via the servo pins, what happens? What do you see?

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com
05-05-2008 05:40 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
village_idiot
Senior Heliman
Location: Land of confusion

There is some kind of bootloader running as the servo connections that are using for programmer comms are not the same as listed on the data sheet, so they moved them with software. As far as what data I can get out, that's all shown over at RCGroups, so far they only allowed the GUID that the receiver is bound to, and I suspect the power condition and channel number for Quick Connect and LED blink (yet to be verified), so not much as the real meat is locked.

And if you brick it, then you might get to send it back where there should be a method of restoring it. Actually if you really brick it then the servo connectors should default back to their programming functions and you should still be able to push the full 8k "image" back into the device after changing IO pins. If I had the 8K worth of hex file, I would try to brick mine on purpose just to make sure it could be recovered and to document how to do it. An intentional brick would be easy to cause and should be part of the testing.


Yes there are a lot of shoulds in the above, and there would need to be some testing done before committing to offering this. I have 3 receivers that need their firmware upgraded, and I would be more than happy to upgrade them and send them back to Horizon for evaulation as part of the testing. The exception might be my AR6200 as I may want to get it installed without tying it up for the entire Summer. But the AR6100e that I've been using can remain a test device from now 'til I need it or want to sell it (with no plans for the future).


I would definitely rather work with Horizon/Spektrum than against them, but I do feel that we should be able to do this simple task at home (it really should be a simple task). Cracking this may be beyond my knowledge and it may never be done, but now that some connections are known, someone else may be able to finish the task.
05-05-2008 07:28 PM
 
 
fran
Senior Heliman
Location: HP, South Carolina, USA

Well guys...don't ask me how; but.....

The actual upgrade is simple thing provided it isn't an E-PROM chip (and I doubt it is) and as with your car, full scale heli processors (from flight experiences); access is actually simple...however, however the BCD is another thing...not as simple as your CPU and as the others have expressed on here...just take the time to give it to the experts, it really is the only way to be 100% sure that you will not "crash", both literally or electronically speaking!


Just mt 2 cents after 27 years with Michelin Tire Corp as an Electronic Engineer with them and a bit of program knowledge as well.


So just hand it off to them and you have recource...do it you self and you have Non-recourse.

Thanks again and it truly is just my 2 cents worth.

FRAN SR. FAI-F3C !!!!
05-07-2008 04:22 AM
 
 
village_idiot
Senior Heliman
Location: Land of confusion

Easily said from someone that lives in the USA and can send it back for a small amount of money. Costs people in Canada $20 to ship with a trackable method to get their receivers back to the USA, and I have no idea how much it would cost from farther away like Australia or New Zealand.

And updating this flash memory on these should be pretty trivial if you have the hex file to upload. It is all EEPROM.

And you really have no recourse from a crash either way. Do you really think that they are going to replace every single craft that goes in from an expected receiver glitch? I seriously doubt that. And if a problem is found in the firmware (like the uncommanded elevator glitch in the first version) what then... You get to send them all back one more time for yet another update instead of a quick download from the website and flash the receivers.

Again, this is not for everyone. Those that do not feel they want to do this can still send them in just like they do now.
05-07-2008 02:40 PM
 
 
fran
Senior Heliman
Location: HP, South Carolina, USA

No foul and you are abosolutely right about being outside the states.

Try getting in touch with XXXX XXXXX (up until a couple years ago he was one of the owners of Horizon and he still has heavy strings there as well)...he lives in Greenville, South Carolina and is one heck of a nice guy. I'm sure he can put you on the right track with you particular situation. In fact; tell him, Fran Crosby Sr. (Hobby Connection Heli builder) sent you. I'll try and get you his number or speak with him myself and ask him about your situation.!

Never know my friend!

FRAN SR. FAI-F3C !!!!
05-07-2008 03:22 PM
 
 
village_idiot
Senior Heliman
Location: Land of confusion

Well, I'm really hoping that Spektrum/Horizon will see this as a good thing and as a "value added" feature to their products. Many other companies have found this to be a good selling point (Castle, etc.) so I'd really like to work with them to give a robust solution to their customers. I think the programmer I have may be the best choice because you should be able to recover from an aborted/failed update with it, and after pricing the parts for the serial bootloader cable the cost difference is only going to be about $10.

I am more than willing to give it a try and let them evaluate the results before it goes public. We know they can upgrade the firmware, so it really needs to be tested by an outside user to see if there are problems that need to be addressed. Since I have the stuff, it makes sense for me to give it a go. I'm sure we can find other people willing to risk the $25 on the programmer for testing.

I did send Horizon an email about this, but still no response after about 2 days.
05-07-2008 04:02 PM
 
 
fran
Senior Heliman
Location: HP, South Carolina, USA

Send it address to XXXX XXXXXpersonnaly!

LMK if you don't get a response and I'll give them a call and see.

Check out my bio to see why I said this!

FRAN SR. FAI-F3C !!!!
05-07-2008 04:32 PM
 
 
fran
Senior Heliman
Location: HP, South Carolina, USA

OK..I called and here's what was told to me!

Of course you now that the upgrade (firmware and new case are free); but, here is the lastest up to date from the man himself (at Horiaon) and I quote, "firmware will NEVER be a computor download and will only be done by Horizon at no charge to DSM2 Rx's!", end the quote.

So that's Horizon's stand!

That's all I know!

FRAN SR. FAI-F3C !!!!
05-07-2008 06:42 PM
 
 
village_idiot
Senior Heliman
Location: Land of confusion

Guess we'll have to crack it then. I think it is bad for business to take that kind of approach in this day and age. It's the gift that keep on taking.
05-07-2008 08:56 PM
 
 
alfred
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia, New South Wales, Mid North Coast

That is a mistake by Horizon.
Competitors will use this point to promote their system and point out the weakness of their opposition.
They also are missing out on another product they could be making which would be selling very well. If they create and sell the hardware/programmer, they now have another product in their range of Spectrum parts.
I do think that this is costing them a fair bit of business from overseas.
05-07-2008 09:27 PM
 
 
fran
Senior Heliman
Location: HP, South Carolina, USA

I sorta agree...I would Never say Never...it has always come home to haunt me!



FRAN SR. FAI-F3C !!!!
05-07-2008 09:51 PM
 
 
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Radio - Spektrum DSM > Update Spektrum firmware at home??? (part2)
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