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Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC . CanoMod

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Main Discussion > Young pilots & helicopters.
 
 
TonyTypeS
Key Veteran
Location: New Orleans, LA

Ron I wasn't making an insult at you nor directing what i said at you. And I didnt mean to what I said as an insult. I'm just saying for who that disaprove of Justin for flying at such a young age to just please take the time to see other peoples point of view. You can't expect everyone to see things the way you see it. Just accept that and let it be Just because of that last incident at the NEATS don't keep on rubbing it in. Jeez how come no one here says anything to that pilot at the Vegas funfly who crashed and hit Mark Ryder? Why? is it because he is a grow up so lets not bash him about it? (Edit sorry it wasn't at the Vegas funfly) But heres the vid:



Quote 
Just this last weekend I did some R/C flying for the Army. The area they had set up for me was completely unsafe. I told them no. That was a judgement call based on possible accidents. Long story short, we moved the site and changed the process so it would be safe.
Thats good that you have good judgement. Justin is still young and probably wont know that but that's where his dad comes in. His dad is there every time Justin flies to coach him whats right and whats wrong and Justin is learning as the days go by. Yea Justin is only 4 I think 5 now but no one gets experience by themselves. You have to learn it and that what Benny is teaching Justin. I have seen local pilots do dangerous things too. Sometimes we try to tell them something but they dont listen. I meant these guys are full grown adults. I just say fine we try to tell you to help you out but if you get hurt or hurt dont say we didnt tell you. I just get out of the way and tell others to keep your distant from that guy when they fly.

Must have more POWER!
Avant FX
Fueled by addiction
05-08-2008 11:46 PM
 
 
Yug
rrProfessor
Location: Niatirb Taerg

I get tired of hearing all this Justin bashing. We seem to be living in a world of passing the buck and not taking responsability for our own actions. When at the field, one ALLWAYS has their awareness radar switched on in the event of a possible disaster no matter whether your setting up, chatting with your mates or whatever. However, for the spectating bystander they may not necessarily be aware of the potentail danger of the situation they are in and why should they but this is upto event organisers to make things as safe as possible as well as provide a degree of eduction regarding safety for the ignorant but all said and done, everyone is responsible for themselves.
In Car Rally races, it amazes me the number of folk that stand at trackside - they are abviously aware of the potential danger they are in and must surely take responsability for their decision to be there.
I remember many years ago when I was young, discussing responsability and safety issues with a policeman. I well remember him saying that if a policeman is in an accident, then it is partially his responsability. ie, if you are involved in any kind of accident then you must assume part of the responsability regardless of the causes. If you were involved in anyway, then this directly relates to your own poor judgement of the situation that ultimately led to your direct involvement of the accident.
The same applies to the unfortunate Justin incident. The spectator in the easychair put himself in a high risk situation and was probably ignorant of this risk due to his decision to position himself in the way he did. Whether it is a ball game, rally race spectator, funfly spectator or whatever, one must be aware of the risks and take responsability - for those that are of sufficient acceptible age to recognise such. This therefore goes full circle in so much as the ignorant need educating and those that are not of sufficient age or mentl acumen to be fully aware, need shepherding in relation to both participants of the parties concerned.

Team Solar Driftwood
05-09-2008 01:34 AM
 
 
Dood
Elite Veteran
Location: America's Dairyland

Yug, you pretty much said exactly what I did (in the first few few posts on this thread), but with a British accent!


Im not Mr. Lebowski, YOU'RE Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dood! So thats what you'll call me
05-09-2008 01:42 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
DWS6
Veteran
Location: Newark,DE

Ron are you some kind of rightous heli god or something?

You act like people are not allowed to make mistakes. You can't sit on the other end of this computer and tell us you never made a mistake flying. Everyone does and that is why we crash. Judgement comes when you fly and when you excerise bad judgement you put the bird in the dirt. It happens, so what.
Quote 
Are you trying to justify a bad choice by claiming others do the same thing? "Other people drive drunk...So, I don't see why he should not." Is an example of the logic you are using.

Answer please if you think a 4 year old can have good judgement? Even his father has said he only has the common sense of a 4 year old.

Ron,
That is not at all my logic, that is simply your warped interpritation of it. My point here is age makes no difference in this scenario because Justin follows the rules, flys better, and is more aware of his surroundings then most other pilots out there. He is not pushed by others watching him fly to impress us. He doesn't have the ego yet that Benny was talking about. Yes a 4 yr old can excersise good judgement and based on my experience with pilots I have flown with, crashes I have seen, and incidents I have witnessed I think he posesses better judgement then most. Again he is not influenced to impress us.

Quote 
Quote 
Same goes for this statement. So many pilots take these machines for granted, Even the "PRO's".
Ron, you are picking on a kid that pocesses better judgement and skill then probably 80% of the heli pilots out there.

Again, showing someone else is worse, is not a logical argument to the question of how smart it is to put a 4 year old in this position.

Even his father has said his common sense is only at a 4 year old level.

It is not a question of skill, it is a question of *judgement*. All you have shown is that others do not have the right judgement also. I would also not want them flying with a crowd.

You have shown that more age does not always equate to better judgement, and that is an argument I would agree with.

But that is not my point. Mine is that with only 4 years of exp, THIS pilot does not have the needed judgement and experience.
Ron,

Ron,
I hear what you are saying but you are missing the point, that I and many others do believe Justin does have the ability to form good judgement. He is/was no different then the NOOB that comes down to the field for the first time but because the nooby is 35 its ok for him to attemp to fly a helicopter? We all fly on muscle memory and some are better then others at getting out of unfamiliar situations. Kids learn better then adults because they have no bad habits to break or an ego to get it the way. They take information in like a sponge and spit it back out verbatem. In otherwords they are going to follow those rules like they are the end all of flying. I would be more concerned when he is in his teens and has peer influence then right now at 5 1/2. If you would agree that age does NOT ALWAYS equate to better judgement then your arguement has no basis. Aside from my nephew playing with Justin for a short period of time at the Gathering last year I don't know Justin or Ben at all. But I have watched him fly many many times in person and I feel he is a more then capable pilot, mentally and physically.

Dave
R90 / Vibe 50 / T-Rex SE / T-Rex 600N
05-09-2008 01:52 AM
 
 
DWS6
Veteran
Location: Newark,DE

Quote 
The same applies to the unfortunate Justin incident. The spectator in the easychair put himself in a high risk situation and was probably ignorant of this risk due to his decision to position himself in the way he did. Whether it is a ball game, rally race spectator, funfly spectator or whatever, one must be aware of the risks and take responsability - for those that are of sufficient acceptible age to recognise such.

Yug,
This is exactly my point. The guy in that chair didn't excersize common sense/good judgement here either, by putting himself in harms way. But it was the pilots fault? BS......sh$t happens and there is always someone that has to pass the buck.

Dave
R90 / Vibe 50 / T-Rex SE / T-Rex 600N
05-09-2008 01:57 AM
 
 
CJames
Key Veteran
Location: Back in KC

Quote 
by putting himself in harms way
He was over a hundered feet behind them in the spectator's area I wouldn't call that harm's way.

ALL of the other pilot crashes The deadly one in Texas, the two at Ircha, the one into Mark R's camera, {Basically all into into themselves or other people} that Justin's crash is being compaired to were to people who were RIGHT next to them, or in one case at Ircha, sitting on the ground IN FRONT of them or right on the flight line.

Justin is the only one who crashed into a person 50 to 100 feet or more BEHIND him. This happened with the heli starting out in front. Big differance.
If your going to make compairisions, make them fair, apples to apples, the adult pilots who crashed crashed right near where they were flying, Justin didn't. The 4yr. old mind couldn't handle it when something went terriably wrong.
I am in NO WAY justify bad choices or flying on any of the adult pilot's part, but you have to admit, circumstances concerning all the crashes were differant.

Many of us as adults have gotten into a difficult choice of either crashing the heli on purpose or risking injury to ourselves or other people, that is where a slit-second decision has to be made.
An Adult will be able to make that decision much better then a child will. That doesn't mean the adult will make the right choice, but the adult does have the better mental capacity to handle the change in condition better.
That doesn't mean the adult is the better pilot. Oviously Justin is better then most at the sticks, but when the heli went into an oriantation he had never had to deal with before, well, as his father said, maybe it was dumb thumbs, maybe not.

Look, if you think he has the abilty to fly GREAT! That is YOUR choice and opinion.
If someone thinks it is very unsafe for a young child to fly at an event, it is THEIR opinion,
Deal with it.
Both sides are intitled to it. I don't see Ron throwing insults, so why are some of you?
Who are you to insult someone because their opinion is differant than yours?

Anyone want a pet rabbit?.............I found him on the road dead and I'm tired of hugging him
05-09-2008 03:01 AM
 
 
CJames
Key Veteran
Location: Back in KC

This is just a pubic forum, anyone's personal opinion is just that.
Some of you guys, please Quit taking it personal.
NO one telling Justin or Benny he Can't fly at public events. That isn't anyone's right but the powers in charge.
This is just personal opinion, thats all.
While it is mine, I am not trying to sway anyone else or the powers that be to change theirs.
It is just a discussion on a public forum, please don't anybody take it personal.

Anyone want a pet rabbit?.............I found him on the road dead and I'm tired of hugging him
05-09-2008 03:13 AM
 
 
Parsifal
Veteran
Location: Singapore

4 years old? flying at public events? with a 90 sized helicopter?? erm... I thought we were crazy in these parts???

If a 4 year old were as mentally acute as an adult (as opposed to being able to fast twitch heli manouvers faster than an adult) we'd see more of them holding high office, flying commercial airlines, being doctors, i am sure a child would likely be able to operate on a live person if given enough time on a simulator, etc etc. (now i know there were a bunch of child geniuses out there but thats not the point).

There is a reason you are not allowed to drive until you reach a certain age, and it damned well isn't (because you can t see over the dash board.

No offence to Mr. Chi, you may be an amazingly talented pilot, but i would vote against letting you fly a 90 sized heli in a public place. This is not a precedent i want set.

And please, why on earth does a person who feels a situation is unsafe, at a publicly organised event, be the one forced to leave???

Anyways, best of luck!

Regards,

PArs
05-09-2008 03:56 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

Quote 
Justin's crash is being compaired to were to people who were RIGHT next to them, or in one case at Ircha, sitting on the ground IN FRONT of them or right on the flight line.

Justin is the only one who crashed into a person 50 to 100 feet or more BEHIND him. This happened with the heli starting out in front. Big differance.

I do feel that everyone has right to voice their opinions and they should not be called names for voicing their opinions. Both for and againt young pilots. I know they are mostly good natured people truly concerned with everyone's safety and I respect that.

There were differenes in pilot to spectator positions between IRCHA and NEAT. However, I get the strange feeling the the actual distance shrinks in Henry Caldwell's case.

http://www.runryder.com/?v=/helicop...HA07-Fri-13.wmv

Sorry for digging this up guys. I had to take a second look on this as I didn't remember anyone being next to the pilot at IRCHA.

They were not next to him. They were about 15-20' behind in my recollection. Yet it is stated that they were standing next to him.

But, strangely, pilot to spectator at NEAT stretchs to 50-100'



I recall the distance being about 6 body length or 35' or so.

I hope the shrink and stretch in the distance was just a coincidence.
Strangely though, I can't seem to erase this feeling that reducing the distance makes the blame weigh more on the spectator and increasing the distance makes the blame fall on the pilot more. Does it seem that way to you guys too?


Hindsight is that the distance sure wasn't enough for safety for heli flying.


CJames:

Were you an eyewitness to both accidents? I was maybe 15' away to the right from Mike V when he was hit.

www.justinchi.com
05-09-2008 04:53 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
CJames
Key Veteran
Location: Back in KC

Benny, I was there and I saw the first one happen where the guy flew into himself, that was his fault totally, he also came very close to hitting Jeff Fastbinder and a couple of other guys too.
But I watched Henrey's flight while I was talking to someone else, so he didn't have my full attention, if the camera guy was furthure back then I stated, I appoligise, I thought he was much closer then 20 ft. but I could be wrong.

And Benny, for the record, I think Justin is a great pilot who trys his best to be safe, the "mental" aspect that I am talking about is a four or five year old's ability to handle the unexpected, whether it be pilot error or otherwise, when the heli does something the pilot is not prepared for, I DID see Justin save a heli when he had a tail failure, that was a great response to an unexpected event.

Quote 
Strangely though, I can't seem to erase this feeling that reducing the distance makes the blame weigh more on the spectator and increasing the distance makes the blame fall on the pilot more. Does it seem that way to you guys too?

I have to agree with that statment, Ircha has repeated insisted every year that there only be one person standing on the flight line while a pilot is flying, They make that annoucment several times a day at the event, but there allways seems to be a posse everytime a top gun flys.

Anyone want a pet rabbit?.............I found him on the road dead and I'm tired of hugging him
05-09-2008 06:39 AM
 
 
pigs dont fly
Key Veteran
Location: ruined UK

As soon as the law is ok about young children driving trucks and cars on the highway, will I feel ok as a spectator watching small child flying a 90.

You guys who are all for it? How many of you have kids?

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth
05-09-2008 12:11 PM
 
 
FBoss
Veteran
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

CJames
Dont you see a "flip Flop" in your opinion?
On one hand You saw Justin make a great save when his tail blew out, Made the right judgment call and actions in a orientation he was not ready for or experiance in.
On the other you say
Hes too young to make a good judgment call when it hits the fan.
I doubt most adults will make the exact right call & move in every bad situation why should we expect any differant from a younger pilot?

The good ole times are now ,000132
05-09-2008 01:00 PM
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

I am against young drivers under 21. I know I was a dangerous element on the road when I was young. Why? When you are 18, you think the death is for some old people and that it does not apply to you. Because you think you are immotal, you act accordingly(stupid).

I have only one child. So, I only know how Justin behaves and accepted that as normal for 5 year old. However, I witnessed how other kids (ages 6-8 I think) can behave firsthand.

We normally fly our foamies at a nearby park. While I was flying(hovering) the foamy, few kids came into the field. I immediately brought it above 20' or so and started circling. To my surprise, these kids (unsupervised) started to chase the foamy and one was aiming his football at the foamy. I saw Justin walk up to them and saying something and he came back upset shortly after that. He said he asked them to move to the side but they wouldn't. I was SOOOO proud that he did this.

One kid was still aiming his football so I told him "You should not do that". He goes "Why not?"

I said "If you throw a rock at a car window and break it, you will have to pay for it or your dad will have to." "Do you have money to pay for this plane?" He said "No" and put his football down. Is this more of a nomal kid behavior? Does that make Justin a freak?

So, will I trust a heli in these 6-8 year old's hand? Hell no! I wouldn't trust a picco Z in their hands. For all I know, they may want to use people as a target practice. Can I stop them from flying? If they have Junior AMA, no one can stop them.
However, at our field, they will have to demonstrate flight proficiency before allowed to solo. Even with solo permit, if there is any unsafe flying or behavior, he will be suspended from flying immidiately. I will be the first inline to make sure for the safety of others. This observation goes on everyday at our field for everyone. This allowes us to form our opinion on each and every pilot as to how we should behave when they go up. For some, I will never take my eyes off from take off to landing and for some, I will go on with my business but still aware of the aircraft in the air.

As I stated elsewhere, how do you check for proficiency of a funfly guest if you have never seen them fly before? I will gladly subject Justin to any minimum proficiency test to be allowed to fly as long as the same test is applied to all guests. I am constantly scoping for any unsafe behavior for the safety of my family. With current unspoken rule, one has to commit an unsafe act before asked to stop. Realistically, the competition is much more safe environment than funflies as all pilots presumably are capable of passing all minimum flight proficiency. In order to not kill the fun at funflies, CDs do not subject participants to go through flight screening since all skill levels are allowed to fly. It is up to individual to excercise restraint so one does not attemp maneuvers beyond one's capability.

Sorry for the rant and rambling. But my point is that I completly understand all those who are against very young kids flying. If I watch these clueless kids behave all day long, I'll be in the frontline preaching no flying for kids. After all, how does one form an opinion on a age group without going into their brains? Only by observing. When you are experincing these kids (normal), you will be more and more convinced that they are clearly not fit for flying and nevermind flying safely. I'm by no means advocating unsupervised flying for young kids. I am just suggesting that there are few that qualify as an abnormal or freak will behave and actually fly with safety in their little minds.

I know all of you will jump in and stop these kids at their first unsafe behavior. I guarranty you that you will find me in front of the pack to stop the flight.

www.justinchi.com
05-09-2008 01:10 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

DWS6

Quote 
Ron are you some kind of rightous heli god or something?

Again, why do you have to insult me, and not discuss the situation?

Quote 
You act like people are not allowed to make mistakes.

Clearly you have not paid any attention...That is not my point at ALL. My point is people are going to make mistakes and the more they think about the possible outcome, and adjust the situation based on experience, the LESS damage they will do when the accident does happen.

And that a 4 year old does not have that level of judgement.

Care to debate that, and not make insults?

Quote 
Justin follows the rules, flys better, and is more aware of his surroundings then most other pilots out there.

His own father said Justin is not allowed to cross the flight line, but he did anyway.

Quote 
Yes a 4 yr old can excersise good judgement

That is where I disagree...And HIS OWN FATHER has said that he only has 4 years experience.

Quote 
If you would agree that age does NOT ALWAYS equate to better judgement then your arguement has no basis.

No, age does not *always*, but a 4 year old is NEVER. That is the difference you seem to ignore.

Spend much time with kids? They do not grasp the consequences of their actions.

THAT is the issue. Children do not have the ability to make rational choices....
05-09-2008 03:15 PM
 
 
w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

Since we can not see what people are thinking I would propose to restrict the discussion to how people are acting, and not to what they are thinking or supposed to think.

Quote 
the more they think about the possible outcome, and adjust the situation based on experience, the LESS damage they will do when the accident does happen.



And thanks for posting that video. Some clubs have rules against flying high speed towards the flight line like this. Other clubs may need to add such a rule?
05-09-2008 04:37 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
CJames
Key Veteran
Location: Back in KC

Quote 
CJames
Dont you see a "flip Flop" in your opinion?
On one hand You saw Justin make a great save when his tail blew out, Made the right judgment call and actions in a orientation he was not ready for or experiance in.
On the other you say
Hes too young to make a good judgment call when it hits the fan.
I doubt most adults will make the exact right call & move in every bad situation why should we expect any differant from a younger pilot?

When the tail broke or blew out or whatever it did at Ircha, the heli was way out in front of Justin in an oriantation he was used to. Even though it did something unexpected, he was able to save it and that says volumes about his control.

However, with that being said, the crash at NEAT the heli went over his head and behind him, he is Not used to flying in that oriantation and when the heli ended up in there he probably froze not knowing what to do. He is so safety concious that when it did what it did, it probably freaked him out seeing it "Go where it wasn't allowed to" that he froze.

That is the differance Ron and I and others are talking about here.

Anyone want a pet rabbit?.............I found him on the road dead and I'm tired of hugging him
05-09-2008 04:37 PM
 
 
FBoss
Veteran
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

Well its been lots of pages and lots of posts. Reading over it all again, Im not sure very much communication. Most or all of us are too busy defending our position to try and see the other view point. Communication is when both or all people listen as well as talk, I just dont see too much of that going down here.

At the end of the day, the powers that be say a person with demonstrated skill, is good to fly. If you dont think thats right and feel as strongly as some seem to, then you should take action to change it, refuse to be around it, or just button up. Since the people that are most vocaly against it seem to have seen him fly and have said they will take no action to change it, I dont see why the opinions should carry weight. That said, some very good points have been made from both sides of the issue. The ony person I can see that has demonstrated good communications skills and the ability to listen to the opposing view is Justins' Father.

I of course include myself in my coments about poor communication. So one last word. Good judgment comes from many sources. To me at the top of that list is experiance, though there are others as well. For ANY person to be that GOOD on the sticks there has to be many hundreds of hours ON the sticks. To me in this case, as in most cases, experiance improves judgment, almost equals judgment. You fly for that long, that hard, there must be 100s of times the bird got away or almost got away from you. Many times that you have lost orientation and recoverd, or not. While its likley true a 5Y/O does not understand the complete ins and outs of every action I dont think it takes an adult to realise the extream damage that is possible. AND most kids I know, that have been trained well, will rely on that trainning as a matter of instinct. Think for 1 second that he has not been told, when in question ditch it? I dont Justin is any more likley to "freeze up" than ANY other stick banger. Think he would really care about the $$ a heli cost vs hitting a person? He's got enough time on the sticks to have good judgment.

The good ole times are now ,000132
05-09-2008 05:55 PM
 
 
Carey
Senior Heliman
Location: Allentown, NJ

Meh, if I had a 5 year old kid I would give him toys instead.

A little spongebob here, maybe some Dora there... hit the junglegym and mebbe then Chucky Cheese?

Would the kid know the freaking difference? I think they just want to be with their parent and what comes next is just filler. Seemed to be the case with my little nephew.

05-09-2008 06:44 PM
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

Here is the bottom line.

There are already handful of nano class heli pilots out there. The dads will put their sons to the flight line. Mostly because they both love this hobby. Inevitablely, as this hobby grows, there will be few with "Soccer Dad" mentality seeking glory.

Justin has opened a flood gate or set a precedence. There are only handful at the moment.

Justin Chi (almost 6)
Austin from IRCHA 2007 (6 or 7)
Alon Barak from Israel (7)
Koden from Austrailia (6) - Coming to IRCHA 2008
Min-Chan Kim from Korea (4)
Young-Rok Son (9) - He will be off the radar soon when he hits 10.

I'm sure many more will pop up this year that will put Justin into an old timer class. (Min-Chan Kim already did that to Justin)

How can we make it safer? Dads will think their son is safe enough to fly so telling them won't make them stop. So, complaining here won't do anything other than agrevating those who are pro kid pilots.

Can we make it mandatory that CDs announce "Kid Pilot in the air" type of notice? I've already seen two instance of safety net in places(3dm and k3dm). Can we work toward that? (good idea at any age)

Shall we subject them to special skill test only for kids under 10?
I say special, because, if you make it so that the majority of adults will pass, all kids will pass so it doesn't prove anything.
But, if you set it too tough, most kids will pass but most adults won't.

Can we set a zero line for safety at these funflies? I set one for Justin at where I place the heli down (typically 30ft for 50 and less for 450) and he is not allowed to cross even for auto. But then everybody else autos into their feet and it is difficult to tell him that others can but he can't.

Even as we argue on forums, Justin continues to age and continues to improve at feverish pace. Can we agree on a age that you will no longer be allow to argue over "Too Young" issues. Perhaps 8, 9 or 10? If you decide 8 is fair, then you are allowed to call him too young to fly and be on his case for 2 more years. If you say 10 then, for 4 more years. Is this fair?

Do we at least all agree that this thread should be used to make our hobby more enjoyable and more safe?

www.justinchi.com
05-09-2008 07:43 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Stu.
Veteran
Location: Abrakebabra Kebab shop

My problem with this whole situation with young pilots, is not capability etc as i think thats a futile argument.

It is with the what if scenario.

WHAT IF by accident someone was killed then your son would have to live with that for the rest of his life.

Would he blame you for pushing him? Would he blame you for not protecting him at that age?

Id worry a lot about that as the father is there to keep the kids from harm mentally and physically

Stu

www.waterfoothelis.com
05-09-2008 07:55 PM
 
 
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