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Boca Bearings . Modefo's RC Helicopters . XHELI.COM

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Main Discussion > Young pilots & helicopters.
 
 
camt10
Key Veteran
Location: ny

i do think its great that these young children can have the dexterity,and hand eye at such a young age. but the one thing that i dont understand as a father of 2 why subject a child so young to such a dangerous atmosphere. it would kill me if something happenned to my child,as a result of me bringing them around objects of such deadly force. its one thing to let them fly if they love it but what benefits to the children get at competing at events. im sorry just dont see the sense in it

TO CRASH OR NOT TO CRASH
05-03-2008 03:13 AM
 
 
Pull-n-Pitch
Senior Heliman
Location: Mt. Dora, Florida (USA)

I don't give a "Rat's A*S" who flies it, Just don't fly it into me!
I have too many close calls from guys "That have been doing this a long time" and don't listen.....
Lord knows I don't want to end up like HELIMAN08 all stiched up!
LMAO:

My opinion only...
Pull-N-Pitch
(The Florida Southern' one, not the newbie from above the Mason Dixon Line)
05-03-2008 04:51 AM
 
 
quattrokid73
Veteran
Location: Huntingdon Valley, PA, USA

Quote 
Quote
in a low inverted hover near people and cars.
the way you stated this was as your flying in the parking lot or somewheres next to people and cars.


Quote
was flying in front of the flight line,
Now if you would of posted that along with what you said I wouldnt of even questioned your response.

My bad for not being clear with my words.

Aero-Model/Hacker Brushless/Mikado 2007
05-03-2008 05:05 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ourobouros2k2
Heliman
Location: okc area, Oklahoma

just like xbox

It can be annoying when playing online and getting your a$$ handed to you by a 10 year old. Nothing quite as refreshing as being flamed by another player whose weebles have yet to drop. This reminds me of such. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that kids are proficient and talented, but as I get older and more set in my ways, seeing these wunderkind types just makes me realize what an old dog I am becoming.

Perhaps it is petty, but if they understood what a monetary blessing they get to "play" with, perhaps it would hold more meaning. I am speaking of the preteen bunch, obviously not the real young-ins.

regards...

Andy T-rex 450sa, Axe CP
05-03-2008 10:20 AM
 
 
falcon447
Heliman
Location: Overland Park KS USA!

Greetings

When this topic came up a while back I came down hard on Justin Chi's father saying that fathers' should not live through their children. Mr. Chi (the father) wrote me a nice reply and encouraged me to go read and look at Justin Chi's web site. I read all of the entries and also looked at the videos at the web site. I had heard that the father was telling young master Chi what to do. I came away from the web site with a deeper respect for the father.(I already respect Justin!!)

I encourage everyone fore and against this issue to go read and look at the web site www.justinchi.com/ and make your own mind up about this issue at least then you have the facts, at least in the case of Justin Chi.

I have a biased about children under 10 years old having a Black belt in Karate. Since I have a First Degree Black and I know what kind of work it takes to get such a honor I know that a child under 10 is not capable of doing the work needed for the Black belt. I think they should (and some already do) clarify their ranking as a junior Black belt or something on the order.

On this issue it is probably best to judge each person under a certain age by their merits and not their age.


Sorry for the "book" I have been thinking long and hard about this issue!!

Brian

ViperDraggsRacing"Better Performance Through Engineering"
05-07-2008 03:04 AM
 
 
Dakine
Elite Veteran
Location: OC, Commifornia

Dood,

My version of your write up would have been a lot shorter.

Such as, "If you're a XXXXX, then stay home!"



Tony Rawlings, What good is 911...cops can't be everywhere...use 1911.
05-07-2008 03:55 AM
 
 
electriciancarl
Veteran
Location: Mesa, Az.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Jq15NqNuQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSqUcrFJ498

Nuff said.
05-07-2008 05:06 AM
 
 
TachyonDriver
Veteran
Location: Chipping, Lancs, UK

Quote 
Why not just let 6 year olds drive themselves to school?

...because cars, and most other road-going vehicles are designed to accomodate a driver of average adult height, unles the vehicle has been modified for a small person.

Little Spinning Bundle of Joy®
05-07-2008 09:08 AM
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

camt10:

Quote 
but the one thing that i dont understand as a father of 2 why subject a child so young to such a dangerous atmosphere. it would kill me if something happenned to my child,as a result of me bringing them around objects of such deadly force. its one thing to let them fly if they love it but what benefits to the children get at competing at events. im sorry just dont see the sense in it

Yes it is a dangerous place. Howver, the world is a dangerous place. Because the road is a dangerous place, I bought them a relatively heavy vehicle to have a higher momentum in case of an accident. I got them a sedan that has a lower CG than most other vehicles. This is to prevent rollovers in accidents. I put Justins' carseat in the middle of the back seat so it can handle the impact from most faces. This is the best I could come up with as a mechanical engineer. Even so, I still feel nervous when they are on the road. But, I subject them to this danger everyday. Why? Because it is life and we want to live it. It is like a battlefield with 3000lb rams constantly on a collision course with my wife's car. 50,000 people die on the road every year(this includes zero injuries. I get petrified thinking of what would happen to my son if a car hits him on his bicycle. Not that I'm a good bicyclist, but I chose to put faith in me. So, I've purchased a tandem bike for me and my wife and added trailer bike for my son Justin. Why? Simply because I get the false sense that it might be safer than letting him ride his bike alone. I know he can ride well but CAN'T control the rest of the dangerous elements. There were 770 bicyclist deaths in US in 2006 and 540,000 emergency room visits. There were 27,000 of them hospitalized. Is the danger real? You bet! Are we going to ride bicycles? You bet! Why engage in such dangerous activity? Because we want to live life.

We worry about kidnapping and that is why we never go to a funfly unless all three of us are there. We take turns to keep our eyes on him 100%. We worry about nanny abuse and daycare abuse. That is why we chose to have my wife quit her job as a corporate accountant to take care of my son.

I have great faith in my son's abilities and his reflex to keep the heli away from himself and others. However, I don't have as much faith in the machines he flies and that is why I make sure that he keeps it far far away. Except for few clowns, most heli pilots know the danger and fly accordingly. As long as you understand the danger and keep that in your thoughts (most of us heli pilots do) the danger can be minimized even from a mechanical failures. It is when you become complacent and forget the danger, thigns become more dangerous. Motorists and bicyclists will not think about the death statics everytime they get on the wheels. If they did, they would be 100% more aware of their surroundings and their position relative to other vehicles.

I have thought long and hard about competitions(he doesn't like practices) in general vs funflies(this he loves). I wish there were more local competitions that focus on the required maneuvers. Known maneuvers that you are required to practice teaches discipline and will make you an even safer pilot. It teaches you and forces you to place maneuvers in more precise location than a freestyle (kind most 3d pilots love) would. A more disciplned pilot would have even more control than a talented pilot without that boring practice to keep every maneuver centered and on the line.

How do I know that Justin is not a threat to others?
1. I believe in his skills over anyone elses(including mine).
2. He is vigilantly scanning and never miss anyone violating the set safety protocols at the field. I have never called him for violating the rules but I have been called by Justin on safety issues.

RonHill would say he crossed the centerline and flew over the pilot's head. Yes he did. NEAT fair was the ONLY time he EVER did this. Why? I do not have the answer. I would love to say "He dumb thumbed it" if I knew for sure. Will I still trust him even if it was a dumb thumb? Absolutely.

This lets me know that he does everything he can to follow the safety rules.

Bottom line is that you will find more safety conscious people who will call you out at the heli/airplane field than any other place on earth. Justin is subject to those field rules as much as other pilots. I'm proud to say that he has never been challenged or called for a safety violation. This is dispite the fact that the safety standard I set for him is much more strict than the standard one for others.

www.justinchi.com
05-07-2008 12:05 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

Here is one fact that most are not aware of. He does not even flinch when he is asked to fly the 450sized heli in 20mph wind. This is because he goes up in these wind conditions to learn how to fly safely by compensating for the winds. I make sure he goes up, as long as the wind is not too strong, to throw his body around. I usually let him fly under the strongest wind conditions when the wind is from his behind. I stand right behind him to buffer his body but all the winds on the heli has to be compensated by him.

Do I fly in the same wind conditions? No! But, I do wish I had Justin's skills to compensate for the wind the way he does.

www.justinchi.com
05-07-2008 12:27 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
camt10
Key Veteran
Location: ny

i hear ya red i have nothing aggainst justin flying he flies ten times if not more than mei was just stating as a father of two i try to keep them aswell out of harms ways in the vehicle i allow them to ride bikes in a controlled envirement [my drivewaywith my truck blocking the inlet]why throw something as dangerous as a hobby dealing with flying projectiles rather then say biulding models as ex i have no issues at all with watching or being a bystander i beilieve justin is a great competent flyer.the only thing i dont agree with is putting a child in that envirement but hay thats just me.

TO CRASH OR NOT TO CRASH
05-07-2008 01:04 PM
 
 
red_z06
Key Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

Camt10:

When are you going to come down to the field? Is your membership at the field current? We'd love to see you at the field more.

www.justinchi.com
05-07-2008 01:19 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FBoss
Veteran
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

I spent the time to go to Justins web page, read all of the content. I came away with two possible "takes".

Mr. Chi is an able BS r who should be selling used cars at you buy here you pay here lot. Who pushes his son for his own ego and safety is an after thought
Or
A very level headed man who loves his son and is a supportave Father, who wants his son to be happy and is willing support him where ever that goes.

Which do you think is right?

People, stuff happens. Helis can be dangerous. Safety minded folks do things to minimise the risk. People do accept risk by there actions and choices. Go to the ballgame, whos fault is it if you get hit with a broken bat? I sure dont know what happened at NEAT but Ill say this. I believe the chi family feels very badly about the injury and desires to find out what happened, sorry but I doubt that will happen. One thing dont hear from the chi s is, "It wasnt my fault", "He (the spectator) should not have been there", or any of the other someone eles fault not mine excuses that fit here. I didnt read of feel too much ego either but I did see/read a person who tries to be objective and who accepts normal human nature and tries to account for that when considering the variables.

So which side, which "take" do you believe? Seen the vids of this Pilot flying? Do you really think he is unsafe? Ever made a mistake? Whos fault was it? I agree with a poster who said, We give the benifit of the doubt, fly until you show you are unsafe, we'll be watching. I think people bring to them what they believe. Think ever sale on RR is a scammer and guess whats likley to happen?

Can a child understand how much damage a heli can cause? You dont have to be 40 to feel the power and potentional of even a 450 size. Most 4 year olds I know would be very afraid of 500 head speed much less 2200.

Accidents HAPPEN if your 4 or 40. Its clear as a bell the Chi family feels dang bad and are stepping up to the plate. Quit acting like this accident happen BECAUSE Justin was at the sticks. It could have been ANYONE

LET EM FLY!!! Go go pound on someone eles.

The good ole times are now ,000132
05-07-2008 01:30 PM
 
 
camt10
Key Veteran
Location: ny

red my membership is not current i chose not to rejoin to much politics at the field i fly with a couple of gents and might go up to orange county with rada i hear 0 politics

TO CRASH OR NOT TO CRASH
05-07-2008 05:27 PM
 
 
DWS6
Veteran
Location: Newark,DE

Quote 
does a 4 year old have the mental capacity to rationalize the best thing to do in situations when things go wrong? do they have the cognitive ability to be aware of their helicopter and their surroundings in the same way as the average older heli flyer?

Are you kidding? Common sense isn't common and a lot of people I encounter everyday don't pocess these attributes. Older people are just as, if not more dangerous then the "kids". Maybe it is because of the "ego" that Ben is talking about.

Quote 
The real question is not can Justin fly....That is not in question at all. It is does he have the experience and judgment needed to handle a situation when it goes bad. Does he really understand the amount of damage that he can do with one of these?

Same goes for this statement. So many pilots take these machines for granted, Even the "PRO's".
Ron, you are picking on a kid that pocesses better judgement and skill then probably 80% of the heli pilots out there.

Dave
R90 / Vibe 50 / T-Rex SE / T-Rex 600N
05-08-2008 06:13 PM
 
 
TonyTypeS
Key Veteran
Location: New Orleans, LA

Benny your doing a good job with Justin Keep up the good work and don't a few people get to you. I see nothing wrong with Justin flying because every time he goes to the flight line his father is there to coach him through the whole flight. It's not like Justin goes out there by himself. His parents are very invovle in this hobby for him and I see nothing wrong wrong with that. I actually think that is a great idea to see Justn having fun and doing what he like and have full parent support all the way.

Some people need to see the reality and grow up. Yea lets stop Justin from flying and tell him to go ride a bike in the street when any moment a wreakless driver can make the turn and hit him. Let tell Justin to go play lil league baseball and have the risk of him getting hit or injured by the ball. Or even have the other kid run into him and have him get hurt. Lets keep Justin inside the house and have him protected from all the dangers of life. The field is dangerous and your should not bring your children there because they might get hurt. Ok if this hobby is so dangerous than why are you out there? Why would you risk your lives instead doing what you enjoy. How would your family feel if something happens to you? Yes the parents job is to protect their kid because they mean the whole world to them. They are the joy of your life. I just guess some people have different parenting views than others. For some with the negative views I just wish that you can open your mind and see how other people thinks instead of what you think in your head. Its life and I do see where people with the negative views come from. I see nothing wrong with the way your think

Must have more POWER!
Avant FX
Fueled by addiction
05-08-2008 06:44 PM
 
 
w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

So how about this original quote

Quote 
If you get hit by an airplane or a helicopter, it was your own damn fault. No, not because you didn't get out of the way fast enough, of course not! It's because you where there, at the field!

I do not agree with this. It depends on how it happened and what you mean with "your fault". I suggest to read "fault of X" as "in court X would be pleaded guilty". So if pilot X deliberately ignored the club and AMA rules and for instance flew through the pits and hit me, I expect that the jury will judge him guilty and then it was the fault of X, not of me.
05-08-2008 08:21 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heligoole
Veteran
Location: yorkshire,uk

Rules are what count,for instance ,why stay off the road because a drunk(lawbreaker)decides to drive?
If your club has rules(as ours does)then most young pilots will have a parent or gaurdian present ,then they are responsible for the actions of young pilots(i am assuming by young you mean under say 16)
as for a pilot over 16 ,there on their own (if this is the club ruling)then yes the choice is your own if you wish to be at the field when they fly.
all i'm getting at is rules are important and with rules come democracy and freedom
without rules only anarchy prevails.
my 2p worth
05-08-2008 10:13 PM
 
 
RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

DWS6

Quote 
Are you kidding? Common sense isn't common and a lot of people I encounter everyday don't pocess these attributes.

Are you trying to justify a bad choice by claiming others do the same thing? "Other people drive drunk...So, I don't see why he should not." Is an example of the logic you are using.

Answer please if you think a 4 year old can have good judgement? Even his father has said he only has the common sense of a 4 year old.

Quote 
Same goes for this statement. So many pilots take these machines for granted, Even the "PRO's".
Ron, you are picking on a kid that pocesses better judgement and skill then probably 80% of the heli pilots out there.

Again, showing someone else is worse, is not a logical argument to the question of how smart it is to put a 4 year old in this position.

Even his father has said his common sense is only at a 4 year old level.

It is not a question of skill, it is a question of *judgement*. All you have shown is that others do not have the right judgement also. I would also not want them flying with a crowd.

You have shown that more age does not always equate to better judgement, and that is an argument I would agree with.

But that is not my point. Mine is that with only 4 years of exp, THIS pilot does not have the needed judgement and experience.

TonyTypeS

Quote 
Some people need to see the reality and grow up. Yea lets stop Justin from flying

Dude...Why do you have to try and insult anyone that does not agree with you? Maybe your side needs to grow up and accept responsibility and recognize that even though we want something does not mean it should happen?

See how silly it sounds to insult people for no reason? Why must you insult anyone that has an opposing viewpoint?

Also, I never said that Justin should not be allowed fly. I just don't think he should be in a situation like Demo flights at events where the risk is greater and the pressure to perform is higher with less control over the situation.

That is the difference between letting my nephew shoot at a range on a slow day and letting him shoot at a busy 'shoot and move' event.

I have a Professional skydiver rating. I have had people try to pressure me to perform in unsafe situations because "The show must go on!"

Just this last weekend I did some R/C flying for the Army. The area they had set up for me was completely unsafe. I told them no. That was a judgement call based on possible accidents. Long story short, we moved the site and changed the process so it would be safe.

That is judgement from experience...Not skill.

I never once claimed he did not have the skill...I have said I don't think a 4 year old can have the judgement and experience needed OR know the real danger of what he is doing. (Remember his father has said he only has 4 years of experience and judgement comes from experience).

Care to debate THAT...Not try to claim it is fine since others have the same issues?
05-08-2008 11:02 PM
 
 
kangarooster
Senior Heliman
Location: Orlando Fl-USA

A little off topic .but an interesting read.

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V116/N18/pilot.18w.html
05-08-2008 11:43 PM
 
 
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