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HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies . HeliHobby

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Zenoah 231puh source coil
 
 
helirazor
Heliman
Location: New Zealand

I have a source coil thats given up on me (red coil). My question is can i use a source coil from a 260pu (grey coil) in the 231 or are they just too different? It's the only one availible to me at the moment without sourcing one from overseas.
04-21-2008 10:31 AM
 
 
Carey Shurley
Senior Heliman
Location: Orlando, FL

I'd guess there is a timing difference so the motor can be hand started with a propeller. It normally wouldn't turn up into the RPM ranges we're using so I dunno what the affect would be. All the other versions use the same Red coil and are generally started with a spin or pull starter.
04-21-2008 11:58 AM
 
 
helirazor
Heliman
Location: New Zealand

Thanks for the input your right. I managed to get a coil in the end but im also looking into CDI as an ulternative.
04-30-2008 08:13 AM
 
 
darwin
Heliman
Location: USA

What sort of CDI system are you looking at?
04-30-2008 02:23 PM
 
 
copperclad
Elite Veteran
Location: ..

hi darwin

here is a list of links to CDI systems you can get here in the states
HTH , dana


http://bcmaengines.com/Ignitions.htm
http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name...tore/category/7
http://www.southeastrcengines.com/
http://www.ch-ignitions.com/
http://rcignitions.com/
http://www.copperheadaviation.com/c...?idCategory=156

this last link is a good forum on engine conversion

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/forumid_92/tt.htm
04-30-2008 03:16 PM
 
 
darwin
Heliman
Location: USA

Yes copperclad, helps very much.

The only one I had been aware of to speak of was this one
http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...?idProduct=6292

Thanks.
04-30-2008 08:29 PM
 
 
copperclad
Elite Veteran
Location: ..

hi darwin

i know some of them are a bit less expensive but may not be spark advance , if you read through the suppliers carefully you will see some are listed as spark advance , these are the ones to get , HTH , dana
05-01-2008 12:28 PM
 
 
darwin
Heliman
Location: USA

copperclad, that's actually an interesting point. I was reading the Zenoah engine manual, and it said that the G260PUH timing advance is 30deg/7000rpm.

Listing the rpm strikes me as odd unless it has some sort of centrifugal advance. Perhaps you can speak to that point. I don't have a Zenoah to look at, and the manual does not appear to address that point.

Regardless; if it does just have fixed magnets in the rotor, I don't think the advance will shift at all. I used a timing light on my chainsaw and found that the ignition did not appear to advance from idle to high rpm.

I would imagine that an advancing unit is more desirable than a fixed advance unit (as you stated), I just wonder whether or not the Zenoah has advance to start with. If not, advance would presumably be of help, and if it does, then advance is almost a necessity to maintain performance.

-darwin
05-01-2008 08:43 PM
 
 
copperclad
Elite Veteran
Location: ..

hi darwin

i believe the engines that use a magneto are fixed timing , and that they set the timing to be a compromize between a good top end and relatively easy to start , and the simplest of EI units are fixed timing too , and are set the same way

it is my understanding that timing advance EI units have a micro controller in them and it is relatively easy for it to measure the RPMs and set the timing accordingly , in this case they can optimize the high end and have the starting very easy , all the timing advance units i have setup have the signal magnet set 29 degrees before TDC , and i believe they retard the spark for starting and advance it as the speed increases

i know there are a few EI units that sell for under $30.00 US and i believe these are fixed timing , then it gets a little dicey as the $70.00 US units can be either way , when i order i am carefull to see that they are advertised as timing advance , and the units i have recieved were labeled timing advance , there are a mess of suppiers and they seem to come and go , one of the links i posted was showing them as available the day i posted the link and not the next , and one companey i thought was out of buisness is now advertising again

with a standard G-231 you can pull the coils and flywheel and knock off some weight , but you have to temper this with the weight of the EI unit and the second flight pack , every thing i have read says " DO NOT USE A SINGLE BATTERY FOR THE RX AND THE EI UNIT " and what is good is some of the EI units run at low amperage ( 500ma ) and will run off a lipo battery and in this case i believe there is a weight saving to be had

bottom line is that electronic ignition is not for everyone , a lot of people prefer magnetos and have no interest in EI , i have engines set up both ways , and i can say i spent some time with my first EI engine getting used to the ins and outs of it , now that i have flown and setup a few of them i am getting a lot more comfortable with them

HTH , dana

[EDIT]
i got to thinking last night , that Zenoah issues different EI units in the US and Europe , it is my understanding that the Euro model will run on a single cell lipo , but the US version is 4.8 volts , i went back through the links above and see that most of these other US units are rated 4.8 to 6 volts , i know some EI equiped engines state they will work with a 2 cell lipo , so i am looking into whether a 3 volt system is available here in the US , and which units are rated to 8 volt plus for 2 cell lipo , i will post back here if i am able to find anything

http://www.apacheaviation.co.uk/Ign...on_systems.html
here is a link to a unit that is identical to my BMCA unit same case , same label and they list it as from 3.8 volt to 6 volt
05-01-2008 09:07 PM
 
 
darwin
Heliman
Location: USA

copperclad;

Yea, I've read that too that you should not use the same pack for the CDI as the Rx. I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed that the designers of those CDI units did not bother to include proper EMI/EMF/RF shielding. That is definitely not complying with FCC part 15 rules (Thouest shalt not provide harmful interference) I wonder how bad the EMI problem is and if fitting a (proper) LC filter on the input (to the CDI) would solve the problem. My guess is bad, and no; respectively.

This single power supply question is especially relevant for a helicopter where you can easily fit an onboard alternator to power everything. That is an interesting thing; you're again powering the ign from engine rotation. Is a magneto lighter and/or more efficient, or is the CDI? Either way, you're converting engine rotational energy into spark.

If the Zenoah is fixed timing and could benefit from timing advance, then a loss in terms of energy (rotation to spark) or increase in weight might be acceptable and be offset by the performance boost of timing advance.

In the forum link you posted, I found a that there are two guys that are building their own CDI based on a PIC microcontroller.
http://www.modelbouw.gompy.net/newcdi/newcdi.htm
http://www.modelbouw.gompy.net/cdi/cdi.htm
http://www.ot40.com/cdi_ignition.htm
Those are very interesting.

-Darwin
05-03-2008 05:31 AM
 
 
copperclad
Elite Veteran
Location: ..

hi Darwin
yes the DIY electronic ignition is very interesting , some , that i have read of are very low draw

the EI units i have seem to be shielded with nickel plated cases and shielded plug leads , i am not so sure if the problem is EMI or just drawing down the battery voltage when the coil charges , i have run a plank with just a single pack ( bench test ) and i know of a heli being flown with a lipo and a regulator , i am not endorsing this , but just saying i wonder if a larger single pack might be fine , i am going to try my BMCA unit out on a singe lipo cell and see if it will run on 3+ volts , i will post back once i have some info , dana
05-03-2008 03:03 PM
 
 
Carey Shurley
Senior Heliman
Location: Orlando, FL

for a helicopter, don't bother with EI.

The big advantage is that it makes it easier to start when flipping a prop. We're either using pull starters or spin starting so that sorta of a non issue

the magneto will deliver a good spark in the RPM ranges we're using.

The engine runs better with some sort of flywheel weight so removing it completely isn't a good idea. When you add in the weight of the ignition box and the battery, there isn't any weight advantage either

If you're looking for a fun project, go for it. If you're expecting great things to happen, you'll be disappointed.
05-04-2008 12:44 AM
 
 
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Zenoah 231puh source coil
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