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Futaba-RC . Fast Lad Performance . Esprit Model

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Head speed / Tuning
 
 
pphil611
Senior Heliman
Location: South Dakota

tooBizzy

It works. Set the pitch at the three points so you have about 3 deg than keep bringing up the throttel curves untill your just hovering. From that point on its easy to set the other points, you will end up with a linier pitch, and adjust the throttel from the base line you got at the hovering point. Agree with you about the throttel opening. I think my max butterfly opening is about 40% at full speed and full pitch,

Spectra-G, MAH, CSM
04-22-2008 03:05 AM
 
 
TooBizzy
Senior Heliman
Location: Georgetown, Ohio USA

Full pitch 12 deg on my heli is @ full throttle! It has a great climbout and doesn't seem to overspeed the head....

How can you have a linear pitch curve if your middle three points are all 50% @ 3.5 deg of pitch. You are controlling hover with rpm not collective. I would think that you would want a constant rpm and increase pitch and throttle @ the same time to achieve hover, which in our cases is a very flat throttle curve? My heli hovers @ about 5-6 deg pitch and 28% throttle or a bit less @ hover. That's how I do it. Works great for me. And its not at all radical. Very controllable.

P-Gasser Se, Raptor 50 Se Hyper, Raptor 30v2, Trex450se, 3dx450...
04-22-2008 03:14 AM
 
 
pphil611
Senior Heliman
Location: South Dakota

tooBizzy

You don't keep your three points at 50%, you are only doing that to get the hovering point at 3 deg. (setting a base line for hovering) once you know that every thing above that will be a higher percentage, and everything below that point will be a lower percentage.

Spectra-G, MAH, CSM
04-22-2008 03:30 AM
 
 
GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

Let me see if I get this.

Dial in my pitch for +3 to +4 max and park it in the radio say some where's between 1/2 stick to 3/4.

" SOunds pretty skimpy - my birds a pig - but WTH "???

Get out of the pitch curves.


Get into the throttle curves and start dialing till I get hover .

Reference the two posistions and then soften above till I get my +10.


Yeowwwww!!!!

I can here people tearing their hair out

GREYEAGLE
04-22-2008 04:13 AM
 
 
pphil611
Senior Heliman
Location: South Dakota

GE

Maby uou have it.
like ACE said set pitch at 3-4 deg on position 2,3,4. then go to the throttel curve on your radio. set your position 2,3,4 at a small number probabaly 15% start the engine and try to hover. if it wont hover at about 1/2 stick you know the percentage is too low. reset the precentages two points higher 17% and try again. Keep doing that untill it hovers. when it does hover that will give you the head speed you want probably 1500-1650. what ever that percentage is will be your setting at the #3 point. of your throttel curve, dont change it. now you can change point #2 and point #4 on your throttel and pitch curve. make your pitch curve linear but dont change what ever you ended up with for point #3. change your throttel curve also to keep the engine the same speed but dont change the #3 number you ended up with. that will get you in the ball park. Got it?

Spectra-G, MAH, CSM
04-22-2008 04:31 AM
 
 
FCM
Elite Veteran
Location: Back in Blighty!

I hereby resign

Paul.
04-22-2008 04:39 AM
 
 
RaptorMan23
Senior Heliman
Location: USA

jeeeez

I quit too Just kidden, get that tach and well take her to the field. Ill bring my respirator just in case you bring the raptor he knows what Im talking about

Helicopters have a mind of their own!!!
04-22-2008 04:52 AM
 
 
TooBizzy
Senior Heliman
Location: Georgetown, Ohio USA

Quote 
now you can change point #2 and point #4 on your throttel and pitch curve. make your pitch curve linear but dont change what ever you ended up with for point #3.

You didn't say originally that you were changing your pitch curves after you got your bird to hover. Sorry I misunderstood what you were trying to do. I thought you were leaving your pitch curves set up with 2, 3, & 4 set to 3.5 deg of pitch. I was thinking, why not just get a fixed pitch heli! ....Its clear now on what you are doing....

I guess for me, $80 is a cheap setup tool (optical Tach) when I've spent over 2 grand on this bird alone....I've taught my wife how to use it and she's a happy camper that she actually gets to do something instead of just watch me fly!

P-Gasser Se, Raptor 50 Se Hyper, Raptor 30v2, Trex450se, 3dx450...
04-22-2008 11:16 AM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
This I don't understand....So what your saying is that your collective from 3/4 stick (50% @ 3.5 deg) to full power/full collective has to reach 50% of its throw from 3/4 stick to full stick? Why would you do that? Sounds like your making it very complicated and a very radical 3/4 stick to full power....

No, no, no you are going off the deep end. The point of setting P2,P3, and P4 to 50% and 3-3.5 degrees is to find what headspeed it will take to hover. You are not going to fly it like that! Setting P2 and P4 to 50% insures that your stick is at 50% when you measure your blades with the pitch gage.

The problem is Grey if you can't plot a graph you lack the understanding to read the graph. I can help you but if you resort to guessing eventually you will guess wrong and then it becomes a never ending battle. Pitch and throttle curves are really simple. Guessing makes them look difficult.

Ace
What could be more fun?
04-22-2008 02:01 PM
 
 
xcellgasman101
Elite Veteran
Location: WOODWARD, OKLA....

Jack I have a GV-1 and Stator Gator, that I could send to you, set it up the way you want your head speed, then adjust your throttle curves so that is stays the same, put the gv1 on a switch so you can turn it off and on, to adjust the curves, I will send this to you if you want me to, so you can get the Head speed set,, and when your done, just send it back to me,, Hope this helps.. Just let me know,, Good luck, I'm sure that you will get it right without all this other BS on here,, XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
04-22-2008 02:26 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FCM
Elite Veteran
Location: Back in Blighty!

I guess there are more ways to do this than I was aware of. But although the understanding of this method of setting the hover point is gradually dawning on me, I think it is not necessary if you either a) run a govenor or b) get somebody to tach the head because even if this proceedure is followed, you are still going to have to fine tune the pitch and throttle curves (assuming no govenor) so you like the feel of the collective whether you fly F3C, 3D, AP or scale. But hey, if all this fiddling around works for you, then who I am I to critisize

Paul.
04-22-2008 03:38 PM
 
 
TooBizzy
Senior Heliman
Location: Georgetown, Ohio USA

Quote 
No, no, no you are going off the deep end.

I don't think I was quite going off the deep end. I just didn't understand your post and what you were trying to do. I apologized already for not understanding: No need to dump salt in an open wound....

Quote 
You didn't say originally that you were changing your pitch curves after you got your bird to hover. Sorry I misunderstood what you were trying to do.

P-Gasser Se, Raptor 50 Se Hyper, Raptor 30v2, Trex450se, 3dx450...
04-22-2008 05:01 PM
 
 
lperagallo
Senior Heliman
Location: Westfield, Indiana, USA

Quote 
No, no, no you are going off the deep end. The point of setting P2,P3, and P4 to 50% and 3-3.5 degrees is to find what headspeed it will take to hover.

TooBizzy,

That's Ace's way of being nice. He, of course, is the "one Gallon Expert" Maybe he's up to two gallons by now

I'm also a bit surprised that these helicopters hover a 3-3.5 degrees. My Gasser hovers between 5 and 5.5 degrees, my Raptor 50 hovers at 5 degrees and the turbine at 5.5 degrees. You are going to have quite a high head speed to get the lift at 3 degrees to hover a Gasser.

GreyEagle,

Get a Tach or GV-1. You need to figure out how get a consistent headspeed when hovering and then match up a throttle curve to keep that headspeed. For my 13lb Gasser with 710MM mains, I run 1,550 in normal and 1,790 in idle up when doing aerobatics. I use a GV-1 to control headspeed, but have a throttle curve just in case the governor buys the farm.

But what do I know, all I do is actually fly

Lou

Bergen Intrepid EB, G-26, 720mm; Bergen Turbine, Wren MW54; Raptor 50V2, OS50-Hyper
04-22-2008 06:50 PM
 
 
rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

Can I confuse the issue further?

The way I would do it would be this:

Pitch curves UNPROGRAMMED, so, 0, inh, 50, inh, 100 in all modes including hold.

Mechanically setup the model so that you have 0 pitch at mid stick. On a 1005 this would mean that when collective is centered, aileron servo will be centered in its swing, bell cranks are at 90 degrees, mixing arms are level, swash is centered in its travel so elevator back and forth doesn't bind on the collars, pitch pivots on blade grips are level with ground. Then, with pitch ATV set at 100/100 you should have close to +/- 10 degrees, with +/- 5 degrees at 3/4 and 1/4 stick.

Set throttle ATV's to 130/130. Adjust servo horn distance so you get full travel. Start engine and adjust link so you get a reliable idle. Full down trim should kill the engine. 1/2 trim for idle. If pull power doesn't open the carb all the way, its OK. There should be a little play at the end so its not jamming the carb plate open. Anywhere between 90 to 100% open makes no difference in performance or power. I would say mine is about 1mm from full open.

Set throttle curves to something like 0, 20, 22.5, 25, 100 in normal, 100, 30, 25, 30, 100 in idle up 1 and 100, 32.5, 27.5, 32.5, 100 in idle up 2.

Hover the model in normal mode and it should be up in the air about 3/4 stick. Idle up 1 and 2 will change the stick slightly below 3/4 stick, but in all speeds and modes it should still be within 1 hash mark width on the TX stick for hover.

Lou is right, gassers hover around 5 degrees not 3. If you're hovering at 3 degrees then you're screaming way too fast.

Keep in mind, mixture settings affect throttle curves and changes your ideal numbers. I gave you a starting place on those. Also, the throttle linkage geometery does the same. More atv's like 130/130 work best with a gv-1 and keep the trim working for engine kill.

You should never change the pitch for hover. Keep the pitch LINEAR or unprogrammed as stated above. Just change the throttle curve to get the rpms you want.

When you get good, you can do full power climbouts and see what your engine can handle. If unloaded at full stick, then increase pitch ATV's to 110/110 or 120/120 to add more top end pitch, until you reach a point where its lugging but not bogging and back off 5 points.

When you get really good, repeat full power climbout but inverted. Observe engine load and climbout speed and adjust BOTH links to blades to change pitch settings in the blades so that it climbs out and loads the engine exactly the same inverted and upright. IGNORE all pitch guage readings at this point, in other words EVEN if it stays you have +10 and -12 at the ends, leave it. You want the performance as the final word, not bench setup. Bench setup is a starting point of +10/-10 and then field trials take over for fine tuning.

-=>Raja.

1005 Xcell Gas, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
Spectra-g, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
04-22-2008 08:10 PM
 
 
TooBizzy
Senior Heliman
Location: Georgetown, Ohio USA

Thank you!!!! I thought I was loosing it.

Thats exactly how I set my heli's up except that I set points 2 and 4 to 25 and 75. Actually this will give the same results as inh 2 and 4....Linear between all points, straight line curve.

Your throttle curves are within 1-2 points from mine....

Thanks for helping me get my sanity back!!!

P-Gasser Se, Raptor 50 Se Hyper, Raptor 30v2, Trex450se, 3dx450...
04-22-2008 08:50 PM
 
 
GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

DA DEE TEE DEE !- DADDY'S GOT ALL NEW TOY'S ! - YEEOOWWWWEEEE!!!



Lord have Mercey : BLESSINGS TOO ALL ! "an then sum"

Thax ALL : John , RA, Fran, Pphil, Crazy, & ACE !

I look back at all the whinning about fighting my pitch curves, crying about the bottom falling out, comming down, driffting or getting down, getting out of FF or my bail out and backing in.

I hate too boast but I been doing it pretty good with a rediculiously low head speed ! HA !

ACE is correct - it is one thing to read a graph, and a whole different game to interpret them, espesially when the two are directly related and you need to morph the results and interprit over each other. Your graph examp is burned in my last few grey cells'.

John and Pphil, and "others" - your method of pinning the pitch at + 3 to +5 and finding the hover point on the T- curve as needed to establish a base line hit the ball out of the PARK ! I fell back to around a +4 " I'm greedy " HE - Hee - go ahead and sniker Q.

RAJA I sincerly appreciate the efforts to continually repeat what I call the sonnet of " RaJA's 90 out you wooden HEad" or the Poem of Ray's !! I never deviate from total available collective pitch {TACP)

Good new's _ Milage went way - up ! It' hovers like a stupid rock.
I now know what "POP" is. I got a scary snarkey Hanson SE that's gona get really scarey. and a Stinkey Ts R -TiTan with a Rajgenerator which the blade have got to be super sonic on a NX .52 and a vibe problem do to a belt thats got to be way over the OEM design.

Look out Daddy's got new toy's !!!! THANX GUY'S Jack

GREYEAGLE
04-23-2008 02:38 AM
 
 
RaptorMan23
Senior Heliman
Location: USA

ahhaaa

Good to hear you got her figured out

Helicopters have a mind of their own!!!
04-23-2008 06:13 AM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

It pleases me to no end when someone catches on to a concept.

Grey, you can litterally go to H Depot and pick up a 2 foot square of 1/2 x1/2 metal screen and use two different colored yarns to weave between the mesh to creat your curves. I don't have a graph in my radio either and those that do aren't much help because the resolution is poor. The 1/2 x 1/2 screen will be much easer to read even though it is essentially a farmers tool.

Ace
What could be more fun?
04-23-2008 01:55 PM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
No need to dump salt in an open wound....

I am sorry for doing that. It is a timing thing.

I read the posts and write a reply in Word at work. Then at noon or 4:30 when I get home I upload the replies. I don't have time to read what has transpired in the mean time. Please except my apologies for this timing issue.

I also didn't realize pphil611 had caught on and was doing a bang up job of explaining the concept.
I thank you for that.

Ace
What could be more fun?
04-23-2008 02:05 PM
 
 
TooBizzy
Senior Heliman
Location: Georgetown, Ohio USA

Understanding what you are trying to do and whether or not it will work are two different things. If I set my pitch to 3 - 3.5 deg and brought my rpm up enough to lift off without changing pitch, I would be well over 2000 HS...

My Preditor lifts off at 1600 HS and between 5-6 deg of pitch. Just like rbort states above:

Quote 
Lou is right, gassers hover around 5 degrees not 3. If you're hovering at 3 degrees then you're screaming way too fast.

Get a tach or a gov. It will eliminate all the guess work.

Apology accepted

P-Gasser Se, Raptor 50 Se Hyper, Raptor 30v2, Trex450se, 3dx450...
04-23-2008 04:56 PM
 
 
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Head speed / Tuning
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