RunRyder - Head speed / Tuning

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Head speed / Tuning

GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

My favorite ole gal, hover's like a ole marsmellow, no jiggles, or flatuance or burbels with the tuning. May be just a touch of smoke at intial run up while comming to heat, touch of vib on the canopy rear flange. Pretty much just sits in hover fat and happy.

Has "plenty" of punch with no doggyness and no slouch on the collective, if I give it a slot open on the low speed needle, it immediatly get's fatty and drops a few R's on the head and tad doggy even if I de - pitch / hover and increase my throttle / hover.

Now here's what I ponder, every time I get down to "empty "

the head speed really comes up and "she just sparkel's" cause she's getting hungery and hungrier- ala running on M-T !.

I hover at +6 or +7 at 3/4 with carb at about 3/4 opening, and have the carb tuned mainley for respect of heat.

I 'm thinking of thinning down the High speed til I get up to the head speed I like.

Is this the right track ?? Curves are pretty null effecting the head speed. I likem almost sizzling

GREYEAGLE

04-20-2008 02:15 AM

AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote
I hover at +6 or +7 at 3/4 with carb at about 3/4 opening,

Grey, I say you are killing the engine. 6-7 degrees of pitch is to much for a 13-14 pound heli. You must have a very low headspeed to do that. Is there a reason why you are using so much pitch to hover? I would say 3degrees is more normal.

Ace
What could be more fun?

04-21-2008 01:07 AM

GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

I don't know ? Hence the reason for posting.

I'm prettty sure that's about where it's at, compared to my pitch guage and throttle stick posistion on the bench. Butter fly is at about 70% opening.

Not sure,... I'd love to get the head speed up further so it will hover at a lower pitch and give a more crisp and smooth responce especally when comming in from FF.

Bird doesn't seem to be running fat, no burble, no tail shake, touch of smoke during run up at initial heat, has plenty of punch out without any doggyness. Usually when it's cold, I can actually tell the motor transistioning from the low speed circuit into the high speed circut untill it's warmed up.

I have a feeling I'm running pretty rich, hence the low head speed.

GREYEAGLE

04-21-2008 01:55 AM

jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

Post a picture of the plug - then we can compare and contrast.

http://runryder.com/helicopter/t425927p1/

...yep...

04-21-2008 02:18 AM

GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

Sound's like twin's !

Here's a pic from last year, I don't own a tach yet but wish I did !
Maybe I can trade a R30 for one.

Did a bit of home work on T - curves and seem's like the favorites are something like 0, 20, 22 /23, 25/26, then 100.

Mine right now are setting at : 10, 35,60,83,100.
Great low tick over at idle, great low, some transistion fat then comes out and is linier to the top.

Wish their was a cheap tac out their, thinking of even putting on some type of EGT, like a Venom on the exhaust manafold.

GREYEAGLE

04-21-2008 02:34 AM

jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

my throttle curve looks about the same. I'll bet my low HS is due to running rich. Idle-up is about the same, mid-20's across with 100 spiked at the end. Not enough as I ended up with a hard bog on one aileron roll before getting any throttle. Once again probably more due to too rich. Next outing I'll bump up the throttle curve a bit and see how she runs.

I read about someone making a tach with an old computer fan. Sounded interesting but I'd rather spend $90 for a Model Avionics tach.

...yep...

04-21-2008 03:18 AM

GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

Rolling ?? I wish !

I'm barley comfy in the FF, and the more I think about it, part of the apprehension has got to be the result of head speed. I'd like to get the feel of my gasser's more like my Nitro which at times may have too much.

I look back at some of my posts in reguards as feel comming in, and stopping, getting down ect, alot of it kinda poin'ts due to of lack of head speed. I'm wondering if you can over speed ??

Sound's like a tach is going to be on the wish list.

Be nice to have some form of clinic up here as we have a beautiful large field but we'd need some one to teach it.

Fun fly's are OK but I prefer more of a set up get togeather.

GREYEAGLE

04-21-2008 03:33 AM

jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

Perhaps sometime this summer we'll have to meet up in Ankeny IA - say "HI" to Eury (Nick).

...yep...

04-21-2008 03:42 AM

GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

Guy's chime in Please !

Ra, John, Crazey Horse, Nick, Franney how about some devine guidence here.

I kinda feel I need a bit of correction of my swing to fix my slice!

I keep set up records logging all my changes, and note's + or - results and I'm close and all over the edges on the set up-s but not yet to home plate - but really close. I need to make a big giant step and it's gota be the blending of the pitch curve to the power curve.

If my head speed is down that's kinda riskey no doubt !

Sweet flying but kinda like I got a restrictor plate on.

Do I really have to purchase a Tach to figure it out ? or is their a poor man's way to do it ??

GREYEAGLE

04-21-2008 03:53 AM

rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

In short

Never waste money on a sky-tach. Spend it on a gv-1 instead and it will be a permanent tach mounted in the heli not only to tell you the head speed but to control it for you realtime as well.

Beats throttle curves hands down in all attitudes.

-=>Raja.

1005 Xcell Gas, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
Spectra-g, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator

04-21-2008 04:03 AM

GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

Gosh my head hurts !

I remember reading your set up , details in the sub menues and even printed it out and placed it in the binder as I truley have respect for your effort on the publication and see it's value !
It's in the bucket list !

I really like to go to the old school method 1st as I feel it's a necessary thing then the GV1 just to inhance the color sort to speak.

The F3c set up stuff is really a study I follow also.

How did you do it before you gave in to the dark side ??

Did you log ? or tach, or go by ear ??

GREYEAGLE

04-21-2008 04:18 AM

pphil611
Senior Heliman
Location: South Dakota

why don't you come up to yankton this weekend, I'll bring my helis, and tack. we can check your set-up and get your head speed set. feld is just east of yankton

Spectra-G, MAH, CSM

04-21-2008 05:10 AM

FCM
Elite Veteran
Location: Back in Blighty!

The plug look weak/hot if anything to me. Maybe a low head speed brought about by having a blocked exhaust?

Please, please get that heli tached or fit a govenor. There is no other reliable way to know the head speed and it is important for Gassers I think.

Paul.

04-21-2008 06:36 AM

Crazy Horse
Senior Heliman
Location: Sioux Falls SD USA

GE I think I'd listen to Raja in getting a gov ...they are no problem to set up and use (personally i prefer something with fewer functions than the GV1).

As you know I havnt been flying for quite some time but it seemed to me like running a gov and consistancy it induces was easier on the heli mechanics instead of making the large disc go through unintentional RPM variances that seemed unavoidable without the gov.

YMMV!

sponsored by generous people that give tips to thier limo driver

04-21-2008 07:16 AM

HOMEPAGE

Toadster25
Veteran
Location: Iowa

I think that rbort is right about the tach vs GV1. I would just
buy a GV1 it shows the rpm right on the display and the it will keep it there for you the whole flight but if you don't want to do it that way-- Before I had my GV1 I would try to find videos of guys flying gassers and listen to the sound of the engine. You can hear how fast it is running and then try to remember that in your head and when you go fly yours compare how it sounds. I think that would be the best thing to try and it wont cost you anything if you don't want to get a GV1 or until you get a tach.

04-21-2008 01:26 PM

AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote
Please, please get that heli tached or fit a govenor. There is no other reliable way to know the head speed and it is important for Gassers I think.

Grey, I couldn't say it better but you know my preference is curves. You know I use a prop tach and it is as accurate as the fanciest heli tach you can buy. I will give you another hint; you don't need to tie the heli down. Just set up the tach the way I did and the instant the skids go light have someone read the tach. That will be almost on the button for hover.

If you flat line the pitch curve for the middle three points, point P2, P3, and P4 all 50% and set that to around 3 to 3.5 degrees you should lift off when your headspeed gets high enough. If it comes off the ground before you get to center stick lower your throttle curve. All you are trying to do at this point is find what pitch angle and headspeed the heli will hover at. Once you find that let me know. The rest is easy.

Don't guess. I hate guessing and that is what you have been doing so you know that route doesn't work.

Ace
What could be more fun?

04-22-2008 01:49 AM

GREYEAGLE
Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

Bench checked it tonight

Plotting curves is definitley a talent. I wish the radio would give you a screen that would allow overlap the two.

I checked the pitch and it's right at + 5.5 at a touch over 1/2 stick and the hover is a tad above that but not by much. I Viewed the throat opening at the same time and I can best decribe it as the butterfly is open about 60% volume.

I need a bit better weather where I can just demon dial and see what gives what reguardless of what the numbers say. I think I'm going to start with a 12/ 20/ 25 / then flat line to the top. 1st just see what spools them up. Believe me I'll be carefull !

Pulled the plug and its maybe a little darker, an even milk chocolate color all around so I'm not going to chase the needles.

At one time someone made a very small clamp on boom tac, but I can see whats in the event horizon, Tac and GV maybe.

GREYEAGLE

04-22-2008 02:13 AM

pphil611
Senior Heliman
Location: South Dakota

Ace

agree 100%, that is the way I do it also. Like you said, once you get that point set it's easy to set the rest of the curves. Unlike the nitro engines the gasser thro curve is fairly flat.

Spectra-G, MAH, CSM

04-22-2008 02:16 AM

TooBizzy
Senior Heliman
Location: Georgetown, Ohio USA

Quote
If you flat line the pitch curve for the middle three points, point P2, P3, and P4 all 50% and set that to around 3 to 3.5 degrees you should lift off when your headspeed gets high enough.

This I don't understand....So what your saying is that your collective from 3/4 stick (50% @ 3.5 deg) to full power/full collective has to reach 50% of its throw from 3/4 stick to full stick? Why would you do that? Sounds like your making it very complicated and a very radical 3/4 stick to full power....

I've asked this before but didn't get a very straight answer. Why do some/most gasser pilots NOT have a linear pitch curve. 0-25-50-75-100? Actually my normal mode is 40-45-50-75-100 where mid stick (50) is 0 deg collective.

I have my Predator set up like this and it was easy to get the throttle curves set. My throttle curves are 0-19-25-28.5-100....HS at hover is 1600 running coleman and Amsoil....If I were to open my butterfly to 60% at hover, I would be taching 2500HS....How do I know? My first attempt at hover, I tried to set HS by sound/sight. It didn't feel right when it got light on the skids. So I had my wife tach it for me. (Optical) HS was 2400! Way to much mid range throttle. I finally dialed it in to the curves above and got the HS at 1600 @ hover...I feel its much easier to have a linear pitch curve and dial in the throttle curve to suit. That way your not chasing two things, you only have to dial in the throttle curves.

I need some work when I go into Idle up 1700 & 1800. Its not as smooth as I would like. But After tweaking the needles a bit tognight, its better. Still have some tinkering to do.

Just my 2 pennies....

P-Gasser Se, Raptor 50 Se Hyper, Raptor 30v2, Trex450se, 3dx450...

04-22-2008 02:54 AM

Pistol_Pete
Elite Veteran
Location: Tampa Bay non-Buccaneer

Quote
Do I really have to purchase a Tach to figure it out ? or is their a poor man's way to do it ??

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...highlight=bc800

Best of luck!

<><>...the lunatic is in my head...<><>

04-22-2008 03:04 AM

HOMEPAGE

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Head speed / Tuning

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