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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Charmouth 2008 How was it ?
 
 
Flapping Blade
Heliman
Location: Notts UK

People have been flying small stuff around the site quietly for years. The bigger and faster Zagis etc went to the cliff. No problemo.


Now someone has 3D'd a large and powerful heli in front of the building and some others have flown large and noisy Zagis/Deltas over the road and caravans.

We've also got powerful electric helis flying on the other campsite by the cliff.


If the numpties continue to fly these big, noisy and obviously (potentially) dangerous bits of kit in people's faces; they will be the cause of a ban in and around Charmouth itself.

nnmfc.org.uk
04-17-2008 01:20 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
red3
Heliman
Location: herts uk

i hope some thing is sorted for next year

Evo 50 Ys50st Swift 16 Dragonus Elite
04-17-2008 02:07 PM
 
 
MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK,Gravesend, Kent

Just to clarify, all BMFA members are unconditionally insured where ever they fly in the UK. That includes even if they have or have not permission to fly by the land owner.

The only way the insurance will pay out is if all rules were being abided by,my brother in law is a solicitor for insurance claims, he currently does a lot of work for Terminal 5,
if someone made a claim against a company or person who was insured he would do the investigating and fight it in court on behalf of the insurers, the first thing they would look at, is, were the BMFA safety rules being followed,

i looked on the back of the BMFA insurance document and my attention was drawn to the Civil liability protection ACT of 2003,
the highlights i have pasted below

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...lLiabA03_1_.pdf

General principles
(1) A person does not breach a duty to take precautions against a
risk of harm unless—
(a) the risk was foreseeable (that is, it is a risk of which the
person knew or ought reasonably to have known); and
- i would say hoverign near caravans and kids playgrounds consititutes a risk on a machine that oculd have mechanical failiure -
(b) the risk was not insignificant; and
(c) in the circumstances, a reasonable person in the position
of the person would have taken the precautions.
(2) In deciding whether a reasonable person would have taken
precautions against a risk of harm, the court is to consider the
following (among other relevant things)—
(a) the probability that the harm would occur if care were
not taken;
(b) the likely seriousness of the harm;
(c) the burden of taking precautions to avoid the risk of
harm;
(d) the social utility of the activity that creates the risk of
harm.


those point clearly show that it would be unsafe to fly anywhere other than field, to do other wise would breach of duty and general standard of care. as the risk was not unkown..

it seems a regular thing for some to try and circumnavigate/find loop holes in the rules, and to tell people on here it is ok and they would be covered is clearly wrong.. cos it would go to court and it would be proved even more so if the pilot was A or B certified, the individual was clearly breaking the rules and not flying in a safe manner..or with due care and attention, attention would be drawn to BMFA handbook and safety codes..

My question would be, one of the injuries at a club down in the south west where a video was placed on here of the lad with a hefty chunk taken out of his leg, was and is still an on going process,AFAIK, if the pilot was covered then surely that would have been sorted out ages ago, it must be nearly 2yrs now that has dragged on for. or even longer.


Matt

I bought mymother in law a chair for xmas, but she would not plug it in.
04-17-2008 02:12 PM
 
 
chopper jockey
Senior Heliman
Location: uk

Sorry Matt, you are completely wrong.
The BMFA insurance is an indemnity policy only. If a pilot completely disregards all the safety guidelines he will obviously loose his case in court and proved to be liable, but the BMFA policy will then pay all his fines and fees. Therefore he is covered!

Quote 
and to tell people on here it is ok and they would be covered is clearly wrong

And I did not say it was ok to do this sort of thing But I did say they would be covered.
04-17-2008 03:21 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK,Gravesend, Kent

i dont agree

On the back of the insurance document it says the following

this policy covers the accosiation BMFA blah blah in respect of civil liablity to pay damages in respect of claims arising out of etc
up to the ,limit of idemnity of 5,000,000.00
the cover includes public liability,products liability,member to member liability, liability for damages to leased or rented premises.

So what happens if the cost is over 5million ?

Say you were flying near an airfield and brought down a passenger aicraft killing all on board?

the insurance document has to abide by the CIVIL LIABILITY PROTECTION - and the breaches of the duty would call into question..

So i dont agree with the synopsis the more the pilot is a pillock and stupid the better he is covered..

And I did not say it was ok to do this sort of thing But I did say they would be covered.

your just splitting hairs now, telling them they are covered if they do that sort of thing is condoning it.

Matt

I bought mymother in law a chair for xmas, but she would not plug it in.
04-17-2008 04:15 PM
 
 
chopper jockey
Senior Heliman
Location: uk

Ok Matt,
so the pilot is covered up to a liability limit of £5 million then, agreed?

Even though neither of us condone it
04-17-2008 04:19 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK,Gravesend, Kent

agreed

what is confusing is the difference between liability and indemnity..

and whether the insurance would still pay out..

the more i see this debated the more i think of what a waste of time it is... if your mahcine goes into something and injures someone due to mechanical failure it owuld seem you are not covered.

Is that correct?

Matt

I bought mymother in law a chair for xmas, but she would not plug it in.
04-17-2008 04:27 PM
 
 
chopper jockey
Senior Heliman
Location: uk

Matt,
The pilot is covered unconditionally (up to £5 million)

The victim is not covered. The victim must take the insured to court, win his case then he gets settlement. But he must prove the pilot was negligent. If it turns out to be a genuine accident, or the pilot was not negligent, the victim gets nothing.
04-17-2008 04:42 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Antsis
Senior Heliman
Location: Kent, United Kingdom

Article 74 of the Air Navigation Order states;

A person shall not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property

It would be hard to prove to a court that flying any model at a site like Newlands did not fall into this category. We have to remember that insurance companies will try anything to avoid paying out. This could be one excuse they may use if there were to be an incident.

Flying in any public place can collect spectators very rapidly and the main problem is that spectators do not understand the dangers involved with RC, especially helicopters. One factor we have to take into account is that this year's fly-in was held during the Easter holidays (I booked my caravan at the end of January and got the last one). Therefore, the campsite wasn't full of pilots who wouldn't normally have a problem with the flying.

Personally, I did not see anything that could be defined as the actual cause for the ban.

Ant
04-18-2008 09:19 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Flapping Blade
Heliman
Location: Notts UK

Antsis: I saw (and heard) the deltas. I did not see the medium size helis outside the main building. Either way, this activity is not acceptable.

Park fliers and small 3d helis out away up the hill, on the cliff and with respect to others I think is reasonable - if not to the letter of the law. Zagis off the cliff also seems reasonable to me. Both of these pursuits have gone on for years.

What worries me now is that the same people flying the big stuff are migrating into the village and will get us banned there too. That is likely to be a more serious and official ban. That could easily bring the event itself into disrepute.

nnmfc.org.uk
04-18-2008 01:09 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
REGAMOROY
Heliman
Location: Harrow, Middlesex - England

Hi All

Charmouth is changing, please see my new post under Events etc. Feel free to let me know your thoughts on the changes.

APOPHIS, I'm disappointed that you felt the weekend was run so badly. I don't fly at all at the weekend because it's my reponsibilty to keep things running smoothly, obviously I have wasted my time (and yours). I'm not going to try to explain the problems that we encounter regularly at Charmouth because that would be like trying to move the blame to someone else, I don't do that. What I have done is help to draw up a much revised (and hopefully much improved) format for future events. Having spoken to a number of people who offered their help/advice to improve an event they enjoy, rather than attempt to bury it, this is what we've come up with. The details can be found on the Charmouth page at www.aha-online.org.uk.
Please feel free to add your suggestions to this post.

To All

Flying at Newlands:
I specifically asked that up to 450 size (max) HELI'S ONLY be flown at Newlands after several potentially dangerous flying incidents from the previous year. Some chose to once again ignore this request and following a complaint received by the Newlands management I had little choice left but to agree to a total ban. I can not and will not allow the AHA to be held responsible for others (who should know better) stupidity or carelessness.

Re the insurance arguement: You are all missing the point totally! What about the poor sod who has been injured? We all have a duty to act in a responsible manner and when dealing with those who know nothing about the machines we use, (public/non-flyers) we have to do their thinking for them also. If anyone was injured at Newlands do you honestly think Charmouth could continue? NO, the bad press alone would be enough to end this event. So it doesn't really come down to insurance at all, we don't want any accidents. Newlands contradicts BMFA recommendations for a SAFE FLYING SITE that is why we tried to limit the size and type of models flown there. I can't be everywhere at once, so if those who want to fly there can't respect the rules (I know not everyone is guilty) the only way left was to ban flying completely. I loose out too because I used to enjoy flying my Mini Titan back at Newlands, it was often the only flying I got to do that weekend!!

Everyone who helps to organise and run this event is committed to maintaining it's popularity. These people give of their time freely to help make Charmouth an ejoyable weekend for all who attend. We have to have some rules but we try to keep the event as friendly and informal as possible. The format IS changing, so is the sport. If you have any comments about the October event while you are there, please ask to speak to me at Tx control (I won't be far away) I'm open to constructive criticism.

look forward to seeing you all there

Regards

Roger Mayo
08-04-2008 06:28 PM
 
 
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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Charmouth 2008 How was it ?
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