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Century Helicopter . MTA Hobbies . Model Rectifier Corp

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Main Discussion > A few questions on our rotorheads...
 
 
QuantumPSI
Elite Veteran
Location: Boston, MA

Ok, so what difference does it make if a helicopter is LE or TE control? Further, what role does delta play in our rotorheads? I think I got most the other stuff down, but these two issues... the verdict is still out.

...now where was I, dh/dt = BS-dx/dt
I will fly you forever... till earth do us part
03-24-2008 07:26 PM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

Look up correcting delta (leading edge) or non-correcting delta (trailing edge)


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
03-24-2008 07:28 PM
 
 
QuantumPSI
Elite Veteran
Location: Boston, MA

I did, didn't get anything that was very detailed. Everything was very general. I'm looking for a detailed description (with photos preferably) about these things. I want to get down to the nitty gritty.

...now where was I, dh/dt = BS-dx/dt
I will fly you forever... till earth do us part
03-24-2008 07:48 PM
 
 
BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

At the bottom of this page http://www.w3mh.co.uk/articles/articles.htm read the Collin Mill article series. Don't do it while you're tired or contemplating operating heavy machinery


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
03-24-2008 11:13 PM
 
 
QuantumPSI
Elite Veteran
Location: Boston, MA

Very informative, but didn't answer my questions about LE vs. TE control nor about delta... Any other place I can look to find out?

...now where was I, dh/dt = BS-dx/dt
I will fly you forever... till earth do us part
03-25-2008 09:57 PM
 
 
Bond007
Senior Heliman
Location: Leicestershire UK

Have a look here http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t405366p1/

Might be helpful

I know from changing the settings on my Avro that L/E gives a lot 'sharper' response, but as to the actual science of it, I can't help you.

Do a search on Curtis website for 'Delta' as well.

HTH

Sean

Blitz Avro, Trex 500
03-25-2008 11:25 PM
 
 
"Cam"
Veteran
Location: Japan

My understanding is the feathering spindle teeters with respect to the rotor head (mast and heli).

IF the ball link on the blade grip was in-line with the mast, the ball itself will not move up or down when the disc and spindle teeter - this is zero delta.

I like this the most. To me, hard dampers, centered linkages and good geometry all make the heli always handle the same whatever you do- the heli never gets snatchy and the roll rate is always the same.

IF the ball link is off-centre, say on the grip side of the mast on a TE control setup, when the blade flaps up (disc and spindle teeter due to cyclic and setup) the linkage will 'hold' the ball back and the grip will feather to give more pitch - this is like positive gain on the cyclic. This will give a snappy and faster cyclic response, but only more cyclic rate if the dampers give a little.

There are 6 combinations for this setup. You can have The linkages on the grip sides, centered, or on the far side of the mast, and have TE and LE for each.

If you reverse either of the one parameters in the above setup you will invert the delta gain. For example if you have grip-side LE control, when that blade and grip flaps-up, again the linkage will 'hold' the ball back, but the change of angle of the grip is now the opposite to before. SO the effect is you get less cyclic than what you asked for. Likewise if you have a long arm on the blade grip and have the ball on the far side of the mast on a TE control, you get the same effect as having a grip-side LE control.

Delta can be neutral, convergent and divergent. In reality neutral is hard to get. As components flex the nature of the delta also changes.

So, "LE grip-side" and "TE far-side" are convergent, more stable
and "LE far side" and TE grip-side" are divergent, more snatchy -faster off the mark.

No-one does far-side linkages because they stress the hell out of the blade grip arms - but you do see them on multi-blade heads.
Short-arms are better for less flex- giving more consistent flying characteristics and a more pleasant heli to fly, but they introduce a lot of delta. This is why flipping you blade grips normally has a massive effect - because you are going from a lot of one delta to a lot of the other. A slicker way to change the cyclic feel is to adjust the length of the grip arms. (Across the mast, not away from it).

For me heli flying is about that 'locked-in', secure feel. So I always want the heli to behave in the same way, regardless of if I'm hovering of doing a tail slide.

I am almost sure this simple parameter is what makes it for some helis over others.

All the Align helis have TE grip-side - giving them '3D' cyclic. BUT I find the TRex will 'snatch' into high-speed turns. Making the flying not as smooth as a Raptor head with zero-delta. But then a raptor's cyclic is slower off the mark, but has more holding power through maneuvers.
03-26-2008 03:08 AM
 
 
Topher
Veteran
Location: Grosse Ile, Michigan

You can find the answer in THIS text book. Iv got it sitting on my desk at work and I know it has the answer to your question. Sorry I dont know off the top of my head since most of my rotor knowledge lies in the dynamics and performance, not control and response.

Get a life? How the hell do you fly a life?
03-26-2008 03:12 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
QuantumPSI
Elite Veteran
Location: Boston, MA

CAM UK, thanks for the information. It is very helpful and it has armed me with the knowledge I need to figure out how the mechanisms work for myself. I know you have explained it (quite well I might add), but I need to visualize in my mind to coincide what you wrote. I'm going to have a lot of fun this spring. My full metal head on my Raven has quite a bit of adjustment and I'm going to try out these different combinations and see what I like. Right now, I have LE grip-side control, and according to CAM UK, that leads to a stable configuration, which I do NOT want. This kinda bites cause I did a grip flip on my 450SE and it's weird because it does feel a little more twitchy which is contrary to what CAM UK wrote. I'll leave it as is for now and do the testing with my Raven, thanks for info. I'm going to do some tweaking!!!

Edit: The twitchyness I experienced on the 450SE was due to other factors that once corrected, was actually quite stable (something was binding in the head).

...now where was I, dh/dt = BS-dx/dt
I will fly you forever... till earth do us part
03-26-2008 04:58 PM
 
 
QuantumPSI
Elite Veteran
Location: Boston, MA

One last question though. Where exactly do you measure delta from? The reason I ask is because the bell hiller mixers are on the grips of my Raven and my Stratus and I can switch whether the swashplate-mixer linkage is on grip side or far side, however I can not move the pivot of the mixer from where it is.

...now where was I, dh/dt = BS-dx/dt
I will fly you forever... till earth do us part
03-26-2008 05:21 PM
 
 
"Cam"
Veteran
Location: Japan

You're welcome. I had a dull buddy read it to see if it makes sense to him.

You can measure delta by looking down on the rotor head and measuring the angle of the blade grips' linkages to the flybar. Linkages in-line with the flybar is zero delta. The centre of the protractor should be on the centre of the main mast.

Stability ALSO comes from the bell-hiller mix ratios. The length of the blade grip arms, the lengths of each side of the top levers (hiller levers) the length of the flybar, the area and section of the paddles, the headspeed, how crappy your washout base rocks about the mast (TRex 450) any play in the swash plates, linkages, servos, servo speed, sticky linkages. That and more contributes to the stability of a heli.

Keep in mind, Stability, Agility and roll Rate, really are all independent. To get all three you need a quality machine with good tolerances. I.E. with the radio on, can you feather the paddles against the servos? Can you feather the main blades if you lock the flybar? If the answers NO, then you have a stable machine (with the right headspeed, mix ratios, blades and paddles). If you also have loads of throw, without binding, without the geometry going bad and enough power to drive it, then you will have an agile machine as well.

ALSO what I call 'cyclic acceleration' is different to the max roll rate. Good servos and mechanics will give a more constant roll rate. A TRex 600 with cheap servos is twitchy and a bit unpredictable if you drive it too hard.

People value cheap spares over really enjoyable flying.

You've got loads of rotor head setup to do? Um, No! Three pairs of linkages, both linkages in each pair should be the exact same length.
I use zero pitch at midstick. Done!

those that can, DO; those tha can't, teach. CAN I? No. ain't got no helis. Can of worms but you have to be very smart to work these things and very dumb to get suckered in. Beer Logic.
04-02-2008 11:19 AM
 
 
"Cam"
Veteran
Location: Japan

Brain Burp!

Asking questions about Delta is really a design question. not a setup or flying question. so YOU think you can improve it huh?
04-02-2008 11:24 AM
 
 
vrwired
Senior Heliman
Location: Boulder County, CO

Quote 
dull buddy

LOL

JR GSR260 - Mark IV Cam Mount
Trex 600NSP
Trex 600E
Trex 450SE
Hornet X3D
04-02-2008 06:34 PM
 
 
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Main Discussion > A few questions on our rotorheads...
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