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Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC . CanoMod

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UAV Autonomous Unmanned Aerial Vehicles > Foul Weather UAV flight
 
 
trackhead
Veteran
Location: utah

I am in the early stages of working with a group of potential investors to develop an aerial platfrom that will be functional in high winds/poor visibility/foul weather to work in a high elevation, mountain environment performing tasks that are otherwise done by full size heli's or people on the ground.

I'm curious on the collective experience of this group as to the real life functionality of something like an Rmax or Neural Robotics turbine ship in these conditions.

Things to discuss:
1. Blade icing.
2. Electronics performance in high humidity, freezing conditions.
3. Ability to fly in winds to approx 45mph.
4. Altitude performance of turbine vs. gas motor.
01-28-2008 07:49 PM
 
 
500Driver
Senior Heliman
Location: Columbus, OH

Hey Track,

Sounds like fun.

I can tell you from my full-size heli flying stints that I've done in those environments (everywhere from Valdez/Cordova Alaska and throughout the Sierra-Nevada Mountains) that:

1. Blade icing is not 'usually' a problem. Because of the friction/heat generated by the blade passing through the air in all but the most severe icing conditions...'usually' ice can not accumulate. 'Occasionally' ice does form at the blade root because relative to the rest of the blade is traveling slower...and that section of the blade does not produce much lift anyway...ice there can create a problem though if it becomes unbalanced. Installing de-icing equipment on full-size helis is difficult enough...it does exist...there are boots and heated blades out there...but I would say that in the case of a UAV blade icing will not present enough of a problem to really factor in.

Now...fuselage icing is another issue entirely. In the MD500 for example it is quite prone to icing in the air induction area (the dog-house) and that is bad news because it can completely starve the motor of air (flame-out) and/or chunks of ice can be ingested through the turbine...also very bad and potentially damaging.

A simple particle separator or alternate air inlet source for the UAV's motor would be a nice option.

Also...one last note on icing...if the windscreen ices up that can be a bad thing too because of reduced/zero visibility. Heated window elements or strong 'defrosters' are almost a must have. With the UAV assuming it's performing SAR missions...you would need to keep those lenses and sensors ice free.

When in doubt...auto out
01-29-2008 02:43 AM
 
 
500Driver
Senior Heliman
Location: Columbus, OH

Turbine vs. Piston at altitude:

A super-charged piston engine will give you decent performance at altitude. The idea here being that the super-charger compresses the air prior to it entering the combustion area in the cylinder...thus...making the engine behave like it is operating at a lower altitude (denser air).

A turbine by it's very design has a multi-stage compressor up front...and by design will offer better altitude performance...better performance over all.

I have flown normally aspirated piston powered helicopters to 8,000' density altitude...I've flown turbine powered helicopters to 16,000'.

Keep in mind that airfoils (blades) are also effected by altitude as well...main rotor blades are suited to higher altitudes...but tail rotor effectiveness is always a consideration..especially in the high winds you may be operating in.

One advantage smaller helicopters have over full-size is the RPM ranges that they can operate at. I honestly don't know how much altitude will affect the performance of a UAV's rotorblades spinning at high RPM...but it is certainly a factor for full-size helicopters.

When in doubt...auto out
01-29-2008 02:52 AM
 
 
500Driver
Senior Heliman
Location: Columbus, OH

The other two questions I'll leave for UAV and electronics experts

When in doubt...auto out
01-29-2008 02:53 AM
 
 
trackhead
Veteran
Location: utah

500d,

Thanks for the insight.

I regularily fly my Trex600 at 11k in cold temps with the HDV cam, but this potential job will require a hell of alot more than the Trex. The little Trex flys just fine at 11k with the cold temps found there.
01-29-2008 04:23 AM
 
 
eric_b
Veteran
Location: Denver, CO, USA

Well, I can comment on my experiences with the R-Max.

1. Blade icing.
Probably not an issue with blade icing. But it has been shown that the R-Max is prone to carb icing in the right (wrong?) conditions, which kills the motor. Since the thing cannot autorotate, it will plant itself. If it's fully loaded with avionics, then it will just plant itself deeper.

2. Electronics performance in high humidity, freezing conditions.
I think most of the Yamaha electronics are rated at 95% rh, non-condensing, although the enclosures are only rated drip-proof. Thus the avionics we installed also met those criteria. We conformally coated the boards. I'm pretty sure there were days it got to 95% humidity - didn't have any problems in that concern.

3. Ability to fly in winds to approx 45mph.
The R-Max can only safely handle winds at about 20mph if very lightly loaded, and less than 10mph if heavily loaded. Otherwise the head dampening is sketchy, and it will probably boomstrike.

4. Altitude performance of turbine vs. gas motor.
The R-Max engine is underpowered in comparison with other similar sized UAV helis. If loaded to Yamaha's stated gross weight, it can only safely fly at density altitudes <2000-2500' max, which is basically sea-level on a mild day. I can attest that with the recommended fuel, the R-Max will overheat and vapor lock if pushed hard at higher density altitudes, even at below freezing temps.

For something else that comes closer to meeting your requirements, have a look here.

I'm currently working with a turbine Industrial Bergen, which is flying a bare UAV to payload weight ratio of about 1:1, flying at 10,000' DA with no problems. (The bare R-Max UAV to payload ratio is a portly 4:1, sea-level only) The DA changes don't affect turbines as much as piston engines, as small changes in barometric pressure don't affect the overall "compression ratio" of the turbine as drastically as with a piston.
01-29-2008 04:45 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Skeeter Pilot
Senior Heliman
Location: England

Quote 
Blade icing is not 'usually' a problem. Because of the friction/heat generated by the blade passing through the air in all but the most severe icing conditions...'usually' ice can not accumulate. 'Occasionally' ice does form at the blade root because relative to the rest of the blade is traveling slower...

I had blade icing on a Schweitzer 300 here in the UK on a winters day in the hover at ground level (250' amsl). OAT -2, obviously high humidity. Vibration increased then ice flew off and all went calm.

If there is soil going over the canopy, you're too low!
02-07-2008 09:03 PM
 
 
500Driver
Senior Heliman
Location: Columbus, OH

skeeter,

yeah...when it does happen it can be pretty exciting and unsettling.

i've had it a few times but the conditions have to be just right.

i flew in a mix of sleet, rain, freezing rain, and light snow for almost 6 hours today without a bit of trouble (on the blades)...but a slight change in temp or dew point and it could have been a different story.

blade icing in my opinion is not the big issue. it can be...but it is not usually the first thing on my mind when flying in winter conditions.

When in doubt...auto out
02-08-2008 03:14 AM
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

Full scale Chinook blades have de-icing.



Give man fish and he will eat for a day. Teach man how to fish, he will sit in a boat &drink beer
02-08-2008 03:37 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Not all of them Hoot. That's a "Special" bird, configured to Block O, which I believe is an Air Force criteria.

Would be nice to crew that thing....

Chris Bergen
02-08-2008 04:24 AM
 
 
500Driver
Senior Heliman
Location: Columbus, OH

hehe...if the weather got sketchy i would just land my little 500 and park it INSIDE that chinook and let them take me where i needed to go

When in doubt...auto out
02-08-2008 12:44 PM
 
 
Skeeter Pilot
Senior Heliman
Location: England

500,

I have to be a little careful as my mains are wood and fabric. Must keep clear of hail too other it could ruin the day
----------------------------

If there is soil going over the canopy, you're too low!
02-09-2008 06:09 PM
 
 
Dr. Don
New Heliman
Location: gainesville, fl USA

Quote 
2. Electronics performance in high humidity, freezing conditions.

High humidity will cause problems if the electronics are not treated accordingly. Condensation inside of the electronics enclosures will cause short circuits and all kinds of problems.

Freezing conditions may cause problems if you exceed the calibrated/operation temperature range of your sensors. Gyros are especially sensitive to temperature and if not within their "calibrated temperature range" will cause major problems.

Dr. Don
02-15-2008 09:50 PM
 
 
Adam Henley
New Heliman
Location: Puyallup, WA. USA

Power loss at 7500ft

My 23cc gasser would not lift its 5lb camera payload at 8000ft for me.. I spent the better part of an hour trying to tune the carb out with no success.. I plan on heading back up to the mountain once my turbine is complete to see how it performs.. Also keep in mind it was very hot, in the 90's when I was on the mountain at that altitude. Everything seemed normal until I tried to lift off.. I just never was able to spool up to the clean positive power like I can 3000ft and below..

Hope this helps ad to your question!

I've never met a helicopter I didn't like :)
02-28-2008 07:43 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Leonidas
Heliman
Location: UK

The turbine will have no problem.
02-28-2008 08:42 PM
 
 
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UAV Autonomous Unmanned Aerial Vehicles > Foul Weather UAV flight
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