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Advantage Hobby . Revolution Models . CarbonXtreme

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Engines Plugs Mufflers Fuel > Thunder Tiger Redline .53
 
 
arceye
Veteran
Location: UK

I have had the redline now for a week and it is certainly more powerful than the hyper, Tuning is easy and even though the needle settings appear to be rich when compared to the hyper. I have however now found a problem with the motor in some strange way when it is being used with my governor.
First the engine is tuned correctly and works flawlessly when running on curves and at no point do I ever hear it go lean.
But using the redline on curves only it runs superbly but as soon as I switch the governor on I hear the motor lean out and I have to turn the governor off again which instantly corrects it.
I use a csm Revlock 10, I have replaced the sensor and tried a friends RL20 which is known to be good and the problem still persists. I can work around it by raising the governed engine speed but that is a work around and not a cure.
I have no idea what is actually causing the problem but it must have something to do with the engine and more specifically the carb because when I place my hyper back in I have zero problems. The only thing I can guess is that the carb barrel has some sideways play which causes it to stick at a certain point and maybe allow air to pass through, but I will have to investigate further to find out.
Something else which is not engine related directly is that I have bought a MP5 to go with the motor and all is well except the simple fact the MP5 doesn't fit the raptor 50 when used with this engine unless the boom supports are moved and re mounted somewhere else on the frames (like where the frames join the skids) as the pipe touches against the boom support screws and very quickly will wear a hole in the pipe. (my pipe almost had a hole worn into to it by the boom support screw after only 3 flights (luckily I noticed and moved the supports mounting points)


Andy


Kasama Head :(
The Blingiest DOWNGRADE a Raptor can have
02-17-2008 12:47 AM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

I noticed the same thing on my 53, that the pipe doesn't stick out as far as with the Hyper. I had to trim the baseplate on my 600N to clear my MP5.


Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
02-17-2008 12:55 AM
 
 
Gravitysucks
Heliman
Location: San Diego, CA

Ditto on the baseplate

I had to trim the base plate as well. But, I also had to trim it for my hyper.
02-17-2008 01:49 AM
 
 
WJackson
Key Veteran
Location: Smyrna, Delaware

The MP5 doesnt stick out as far as my MP2.

Bill Jackson
President- Delaware Heli Association
www.DelawareHeli.com
02-17-2008 02:02 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Billebob
Senior Heliman
Location: Tim-buck-2

Use a metal gasket(s) to space the MP-5 out and/or use a counter sunk screw into the tail boom support fitting.You can also shorten the frame stand-off. I saw it in a magazine this week. Boys, I guess that's why they call it modeling. The MP5 is longer than other mufflers, that's why others fit without messing with the screw. It's also part of the reason why the thing goes like stink.

BB
02-17-2008 12:05 PM
 
 
helicrasher
Senior Heliman
Location: Belgium

Arceye,

Try a carb-smart in combination with the rev-lock.
If this works it can be the combination of the trottle position and the loading of the engine on this moment that makes the engine running leaner.

Just a gues.

Mario
02-18-2008 10:25 AM
 
 
DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

Quote 
I know a couple of top 3d pilots who have test flown it over the past couple of months and said it was the most powerful 50 motor out there, so I'm looking forward to "lighting this candle".

They wouldn't be TT reps by any chance would they.
02-18-2008 10:51 AM
 
 
Billebob
Senior Heliman
Location: Tim-buck-2

No not all of them. Why don't you do some research, lots of reqular guys on RR with these engines now. On second thought, go back to drumming your nuts.

BB
02-18-2008 02:05 PM
 
 
arceye
Veteran
Location: UK

Unfortunately I can't try the carb smart yet as this will only mask a problem instead of forcing me to find out what the actual problem is.
First sorry in advance for the long post.

So far I have done the following.
The combination is Redline motor + MP5 (also tried with MP2 with the same results). Governors I have used Revlock 10 and 20 (both of which are perfectly working on my hyper with exactly the same setup)

Engine tuned slightly richer than ideal and running perfectly fine without governor at whatever head speed I choose to run from 1700 - 2150 from hovering to full on 3d it works flawlessly.
Governor switched on with head speed anywhere from 1750 - 1900 the engine will lean like hell when in the hover but under load it runs fine.
Governor on with head speed of 2000 - 2100 the engine sings with huge power and never changes its humming perfect tone from hover to fully loaded 3d stuff.

Now this is starting to feel like a pre cateye modded OS50 SXH with a lean point in the carb which is only showing at a very specific carb position and only noticed when governed as the governor holds the carb in this exact position or the carb is sticking at this position and as I use a tail servo on throttle it doesn't have the torque to get passed the sticky point. (but as I run push pull on the throttle it should never have a sticky point as the carb barrel will have no side load)

Next week I will use the 8.7 gears which will give a higher engine RPM for a given head speed and so may completely avoid this specific point on the carb, it should also allow the engine to be closer to the RPM it wants to be without giving a ridiculously high head speed.


Kasama Head :(
The Blingiest DOWNGRADE a Raptor can have
02-18-2008 02:15 PM
 
 
colsy
Elite Veteran
Location: Cambridge, UK

Andy

If it runs so well, why are you bothering with a governor ??

col.

Only Quote From Experience.
02-18-2008 02:49 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
WJackson
Key Veteran
Location: Smyrna, Delaware

Well, put four more tanks one the Redline yesterday. Temps were back down into the high 30's-low 40's. Ran the living snot out of it. This thing is making incredible power, I mean just awesome. Couple of guys at the field actually approached me to ask what was in it, it was that noticeable. Now the carbsmart was set on a high 50's day and I did notice that it never left the full lean position even with it set at 100C. The power was there, all the time, when I wanted it. When I brought it in, quickly, I might add when I do this, to a side in hover ONE time during the day the carbsmart was straight up and down, right where I originally set it. From everything Dino has said this engine likes higher RPMs and I have been running at 2100 H/S on the Multigov. I am nothing but happy with this motor.

Bill Jackson
President- Delaware Heli Association
www.DelawareHeli.com
02-18-2008 03:27 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Rossco
Heliman
Location: Mackay,Queensland,Au stralia

Arceye,
Try richening the idle mixture screw a little
02-18-2008 09:15 PM
 
 
v58 fuy
Senior Heliman
Location: UK - Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Arceye,

Agree with Rossco I think the low end needs richening a little.

David
02-18-2008 10:58 PM
 
 
Dino Spadaccini
Key Veteran
Location: USA

low end richer

Yes you are all right RICHEN up the low end I had a friend with the same problem about 1/2 turn open to the rich we went on cp 30 this will solve the problem plus if you are running magnum fuel you might need to go 3/4 richer on the low end there is no need to mod anything the reason you go rich when you kick into the higher head speed you are then on the high speed needle the low needle does the low and the mid.

I had the same talk with ray dog from Ca usa with his redline he is running cy fuel and was having the same leaning issue after I told him go 1/2 to 3/4 rich on the low from the stock setting being flush with the carb body and putting his high needle at 2.75 his final tuned in at 1/2 rich over stock on the low and about 2.25 on the mid I bet that’s where you need to be at Arceye

Team Thunder Tiger
Team Futaba
CY Enterprises
Flight Power
Morgan fuel
Omi
Rev max
02-18-2008 11:24 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
v58 fuy
Senior Heliman
Location: UK - Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Arceye,

Thanks to some great advice from Dino, my TT53 now has had about 2 1/2 gallons running 20% Magnum and the MP5, slowly but surely I have leaned the motor out until now today I was at about 3-4 clicks less than 2 turns on the main with the low close to stock (I too did once experience the problem you had and it instantly went by richening the idle).

Mine now runs great, the backplate is just warm but certainly not hot, and if I check the engine with a gun I get about 180F. I have found that the more fuel that goes through it the more it has needed to be leaned out - guess it's bedding in well, plus the weather has been warmer in the last few days.

David
02-19-2008 12:20 AM
 
 
arceye
Veteran
Location: UK

Will give it a go with richening the low end next time out I had richened it a little but no where near 1/2 a turn richer.
As I have said the engine is producing gobs of power so I have no complaints about it I was just a little annoyed to find that when being governed at a quite specific speed it went very lean which gives the impression of a lean spot on the carb in a very specific position.
I have to assume that by richening the low end it will of course get over the problem but again it is really masking it more than anything else as when doing auto testing it just moves perfectly to a very smooth idle (no hanging or anything).
Currently I am 2.75 in the main with the low a litle bit richer than stock, so I have to guess that the low end richer will give a richer mixture a the given point on the carb (running wildcat 30LV)
I have had the engine out today while changing while doing a thorough clean up and I while looking down the carb I can clearly see that the needle that enters the spray bar is quite blunt meaning when it gets to a specific point it will have a huge effect over a very short range and something tells me if it had a little more of a taper it would work in a much more linear fashion. Something to mess with at a later date, at the moment I will be happy to work around it as I am having so much fun with the extra power its beyond funny. Just sometimes I like to lower the head speed and have a more sedate flight which is where I discovered the problem I have.
Something I am going to do is adjust the throttle curve (obviously without the governor) to find the exact point at which this leaning happens so I can replicate the position on the bench and physically see exactly where the throttle barrel is and where the needles inside the carb are positioned then it will give a more clear answer to if a mod is indeed needed to overcome the problem without having to compromise on the mixture settings.

Colsy: the governor is simply to allow a higher gyro gain by reducing chances of over-speeding in certain positions.

Andy


Kasama Head :(
The Blingiest DOWNGRADE a Raptor can have
02-19-2008 12:31 AM
 
 
Dino Spadaccini
Key Veteran
Location: USA

thats great

v58 fuy that’s great glad to hear that, TT is setting the low end to lean from the Factory, I am thinking that they must be setting them for 15% fuel instead of 30% I recommend to everyone that they just richen the low about 1/2 turn rich that’s the trick thanks again for the feed back. I have sent an email letting TT know this they should be able to make the change on the fly thanks Dino

Team Thunder Tiger
Team Futaba
CY Enterprises
Flight Power
Morgan fuel
Omi
Rev max
02-19-2008 12:37 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Rockohaulic
Elite Veteran
Location: Valencia, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

Dino,
For the low end, does the pinch test work pretty good with this engine?

About how many seconds are you looking for for the pinch test??

I got a helicopter for my girlfriend,
It was a good trade!
02-20-2008 12:12 AM
 
 
Dino Spadaccini
Key Veteran
Location: USA

pinch

I have done that in a long time. I will hold the heli upside down at an idle to see how the idle is but once I get it where I want it I forget about it and fly, I only mess with the high if I have to as the weather changes I guess 3 sec pinch should work.

Team Thunder Tiger
Team Futaba
CY Enterprises
Flight Power
Morgan fuel
Omi
Rev max
02-20-2008 01:13 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
arceye
Veteran
Location: UK

I finally got my engine running purrrfect through the entire throttle range with no lean point .

I feel I have to say I have not ever slated this motor and have always been astounded by it power, but I did have a problem with a low governed head speed of around 1700- 1750 where it would lean out very badly.
It was suggested that I turn the idle screw 1/2 a turn richer to compensate which of course I did try but all this did was produce an engine that was difficult to start and wouldn't idle for more than a few seconds it was so way to rich but once I managed to get it up to speed the lean spot was not there, what I had now was a needle compromise where something has to be deliberately set wrong to correct or compensate for a problem that shouldn't be there.
I would like to thank Dino for the suggestion which did correct the lean point but in my case it wasn't the solution it was a work around. I could never expect anyone to diagnose a problem without actually seeing and hearing it first hand, so thanks Dino what you suggested did work, I just didn't want to compromise any part of this engines amazing performance potential.

After some tedious throttle curve messing to see exactly where it went lean I found the exact point on the throttle it went lean so I could replicate it on the bench. After the replication I found that it was as I though in an earlier post where the internal needle entered the spray bar.
My intention was to taper the very blunt end a little as the way it is by default, is all or nothing, tapering would allow the transfer to be smother and not lean so much. BUT on stripping the carb barrel out and removing the throttle arm I noticed that the needle is adjustable and so it can be altered to give the perfect mixture.
On mine I did taper then end a little anyway (and I mean a very little) but I have adjusted its position also.
My end result is there are NO lean points on the carb any more and I have been able to lean the engine somewhat on the high end to gain its full potential and also my low end is now leaner than the default position by about 1/8 of a turn. The engine sings from start to finish of a flight never misses a beat and jumps from a 17750 RPM to idle the instant the hold is flicked, that idle can be sustained for minutes but the moment it is required the engine will throttle up effortlessly.

I feel compelled to add that this problem I had may well be an isolated problem where the engine was assembled at 4.55pm on a Friday and so the internal needle was incorrectly adjusted from the factory, But if anyone is having the problems I had where the engine runs very lean at a specific point on the throttle then don't rich-en the low and high end screws and compromise your tuning instead alter the internal needle by a tiny amount to gain huge benefits.

My resulting needles are low end is around 1/8 lean of factory setting and high end is 2 turns + 5 clicks, overall the engine is still running slightly richer than absolute max power but I am more than happy with the current power it produces and running slightly rich can only help the engine live longer.


Andy


Kasama Head :(
The Blingiest DOWNGRADE a Raptor can have
02-24-2008 04:34 PM
 
 
7 pages [ <<    <     1      2     ( 3 )     4      5     NEXT    >> ]9529 viewsPOST REPLY
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