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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > FAI equipment for 3D, What's wrong with these people?

Ken B
Elite Veteran
Location: Phoenix, AZ

I have been reading allot of people wanting to take FAI specific equipment and they are trying to use it for 3D applications.

WHAT"S WRONG WITH THEM???

People, a 3D Machine is that, a FAI machine is that. Each is set up very different.

This is like taking a short track Winston cup racer and using it at Daytona. It just isn't made for it.

So quit trying to convert a Tempest head or a Freya Eagle EX WC to do 3D. Yes, they can do it, but they just arn't designed to do it.

I think some people just want to buy the best and then beat it to death. So I hope the manufactures are noticing this. If you build a +$2000 3D machine it will sell because the 3D craze has the rich guys wanting the most expensive machine they can get.

Rant over, flame suit on

Ken B

03-14-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

mongo
Veteran
Location: Midland, Republic of TEXAS

nothing

almost all the stuff we 3d with nowdays, started off as, or owes its heritage to, fai equipment.
such has always been the way, and probably always will.
besides which, not all 3d is stickbanging nonsense. some do smooth 3d.

Copyright © 2001-2005 Mongo Consulting. All rights reserved.

03-14-2003 Over year old.

Parsifal
Veteran
Location: Singapore

Ok, for someone who hasn't got a clue, What are the fundamentals of head design that affect the 3D ability of a Heli anyway?

Pars

03-14-2003 Over year old.

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Vance
Veteran
Location: York ,PA

Well as you can read in the tempest head thread, that FAI head seems to work pretty well for 3D.
The real question is WHY does it upset you so much? You must be getting old as anything different from the "norm" seems to upset the older folks.
There is a very old saying that goes something like this:
"That which is different is henceforth called evil''
Does it also upset you to see a scale heli flown in an "unscale like" way?
People are all wired differently and some need to work it all out on thier own before they will believe the results. Sometimes those results are surprising to everyone, and sometimes to no one.
Vince D

03-14-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Ken B
Elite Veteran
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Upset? Me? NAAAAaaa...

I just figured this would make for some good discussion.

Ken B

03-14-2003 Over year old.

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RICK S.
Senior Heliman
Location: Lafayette,La

Discussion

When u get that bored u ought to go fly!!

Rick S.
Magnum Fuels Rep

03-14-2003 Over year old.

Ken B
Elite Veteran
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Quote
When u get that bored u ought to go fly

I'm at work playing hooky on Runryder

Ken B

03-14-2003 Over year old.

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SAL
Veteran
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada

Although I fly 3D all day long, my Fury runs more of a FAI setup, I also run flybar weights for extra smoothness.

WHY??? Well if the truth be told, i've seen pilots setup with loads of cyclic movement, and when it comes to 3D, it looks more like stick banging, and a load of radio interference !!!!! Also their machines are pitchy and really sensitive at the controls

A heli which goes through it's 3D with precision and grace looks far better, and this is due to a nice smooth setup, much like a FAI machine. Don't tell me thou, that you can't use this smooth setup for hard 3D, i can easily perform any 3D menuover, within reason, that a 3D seup machine can do, only difference is that my menuover will look far better.......

BTW: good efficient cyclic / collective control is far more important to pulling off hard 3D, than a extreme cyclic movements.

SAL

.

[color=red]SAL[/color]

03-14-2003 Over year old.

synodontis
Veteran
Location: United Kingdom

Freya WC to 3D:

change the tail to normal aluminium tail boom (stock carbon boom is too delicate)
switch head to SSZ-II (metal version of stock Plastic Freya head)
change control to SWM (hirobo's version of CCPM) if you need it

but to do something like this is a act of "extraneous pointlessness" since for one third of the cost you could get a Fury Extreme instead.

And I would LOVE to see someone 3D a Sylphide, knowing the rotor head has only a 17 degree pitch range!! and the tail is "delicate"!!!

Totally agree volkul, these machines aren't made for 3D and should never be used as such. However some 3D machines CAN be setup to do good FAI. But at the end of the day it's your heli and you can do what you like with it.

SKS

03-14-2003 Over year old.

FlyinBrian
Veteran
Location: USA

Hi,

Volkul, "People, a 3D Machine is that, a F3C machine is that. Each is set up very different"

Since your such an expert on the subject please inform of us the setup differences? Why wont a "F3C" specific machine "3d" well and vice versa?

Any real world expierence in trying to achieve a fai and 3d setup with the same heli?

Inquiring minds want to know

03-14-2003 Over year old.

Ken B
Elite Veteran
Location: Phoenix, AZ

OK, Auger, first I'm no expert. That's why I started this discussion. To get the experts and valued opinions on this. Yes, I am stiring things up a bit because it usually makes for good discussions.

What keyed me into this whole thing is because of the people that are looking at buying a Eagle EX WC. They start out by saying "I know it's a FAI machine but will it 3d".

So I wanted to get things really going by pushing one side of the discussion.

Come on MAN, have a little fun

Panos,
I tend to think the lines are merging too. But is there no room in the market for seperate specific machines?

Lets talk basic machine design, Everything from the head down is most likly the same in ether realm. The Head, Now that's the magic element that can change everything. Just look at the Head that Curtis used last year on his CS compared to the standard head. Also the Head on a Hirobo Freya EX WC compared to a standard EX. Big differences in each design. What makes one better for FAI, or 3D? Pitch range? Delta angle? Flybar ratios angle ratios?(Not sure on the term for that)

What I see is well to do pilots buying the big expensive FAI machines and then asking if they can 3D them. More power to em but would they be better off with a machine that was designed for 3D only in the same price range?

We all know 3D has been the term of the times for the past several years. I Know when I first got into choppers back in 87 3D was a term only used in the movie theater and you wore funny glasses.

Ken B

03-14-2003 Over year old.

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TEMPEST BOY
Senior Heliman
Location: down at the barn

.

Lamborghini- cool ferrari- crap

03-14-2003 Over year old.

Ken B
Elite Veteran
Location: Phoenix, AZ

David,

The manufactures are making the determination for us too. Off the MA web site Cliff Hiatt talks about setting the Tempest head up for FAI. Heck the Tempest it's self is supposed to be a FAI machine. So who is making those decisions?

Tempest head set up on MA

Hirobo does the same thing with the Freya, eagle line too

Ken B

03-14-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Heli-Driver
Elite Veteran
Location: Arlington, TX

I've watched Curtis and Todd do some smooth FAI type flying that was 3D but wasn't fast and jerky, it was smooth and very fluid.

I was impressed with that flying style, it seems very graceful in the air and doesn't look like as one person said "radio interference".

I'm sure a good pilot can take a 3D machine and fly decent FAI with it and vice versa but I agree that there are two different setups for FAI and heavy fast 3D.

My Fury Extreme is so nimble, much more capable than my fingers and thumbs can drive, I'm considering slowing it down a bit to get a smoother FAI style of flying out of the machine.

That may involve changing to a longer flybar, different paddles and maybe changing the flap dampers and removing the C-Clips on the spindle shaft so the rotor disk isn't so rigid.

Raymond

Predator Gasser SE/231 X 2
Century Helicopters

03-14-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

synodontis
Veteran
Location: United Kingdom

I flown a 3D machine like XCell Fury Expert 60, and I've flown a Freya WC and I still fly a Sylphide.

You're talking totally different machines in terms of how they behave. They're different animals. The SSR-VI head on the Freya WC has very low flybar deflection angle, but god does it hover good!!

The Sylphide in the hover hardly requires any stick inputs to hold it at one point - I can't say this about the Fury!! I will try the Tempest head to see what happens but I really ain't expecting much (no offence to anyone on that).

I am in total agreement with Mr Wayne Mann about contest setups on helis and in competition you want the heli to "take as much work" off you as is possible. If there is even an itsy bitsy change that an FAI contest grade pilot knows he can make to hover better he will do it - end of story. A 3D pilot will not worry about it that much.

SKS

03-14-2003 Over year old.

TEMPEST BOY
Senior Heliman
Location: down at the barn

Agree with that

Lamborghini- cool ferrari- crap

03-14-2003 Over year old.

RappyTappy
Elite Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Quote
Stiff non-under slung flap damping, high cyclic and collective throw and a good 1:1 flybar ratio...... plus bags of rpm along with a fast tail rotor on a stiff light powerful platform. It isn't rocket science.

I think that a 1:1 flybar ratio is ok for 3D, but look at all the truly supreme 3D helicopters on the market. Such as the most current Fury. It is not 1:1.

Chris
Xero G

Forever Brothers
Mickey Tylo

03-14-2003 Over year old.

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mongo
Veteran
Location: Midland, Republic of TEXAS

03-15-2003 Over year old.

FlyinBrian
Veteran
Location: USA

Hi,

David, F3C. Does that make you feel better

Volkul, I really have a hard time telling the differences between your questions and your statements. If you actually present your questions in the form of a question you are much more likely get an answer and probably wont need a flame suit in the first place.

To answer your statement

yes you can find a happy setup between the two extremes and fly both styles in the same flight and fly both styles very well. I've been happy doing that for the last 7 years and it works well for "me". Others may not like it but thats really not my problem

There are a lot of unused adjustments (paddles, weights, flybar length, mixer ratios (on some heads) and blades) that you can use to basically get the feel you want and get the model flying the way "you" like.

One of the problems with finding the perfect setup is the conditions we fly vary considerbly, your heli may be perfect in 10mph gusty winds but just does'nt re-act properly to a 20mph constant wind. Getting a model to fly / hover fairly well all around is going to be much better than a model that only hover's perfectly.

This really is one of those questions you should answer for yourself by expiermenting and before all is said and done you will get the true answer plus learn a lot of things in the process.

03-15-2003 Over year old.

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > FAI equipment for 3D, What's wrong with these people?

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