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e-E-Sky Honey Bee- Lama- Belt CP- E-Smart > With HBK2, what do you prefer?
 
 
chewbacchi
Senior Heliman
Location: The Blue Marble

Guys,I posted this discussion in another RC forum, and I'm not getting much response, so decided to post here as well. Thanks!

First of all, Thanks for being here, all of you for much support and a wealth of knowledge. Having others that are so willing to offer advice, help, and extra parts is so appreciated.
And the heck with you all!! for making me have to spend more money to get back into helis and scratch my proverbial itch for flying rc helis!!

OK, down to business...
I do want to get the Spektrum system for better programming of my HBK V2, eventually, but I subscribe to the school of "the previous model is just as good, and now it's cheaper" thought.

Discuss:
Pros and Cons of each version, DX6, DX7.
Are there any glitching probs w/ DX6?
Same functions, power, range, etc.


Thanks, in advance, for all your advice, and helpful information.
What better place to ask a radio question is in the forum where the most people are using it. Thanks.

Going broke and OK with it.
01-01-2008 06:42 PM
 
 
Burlyman38
Veteran
Location: Troy,IL

just a newbie, running the 6, no problems so far, but havent used mine to its potential yet.

TripleB
Flying by the street light.
01-01-2008 07:40 PM
 
 
Gregor99
Key Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Funny how we all bring our RC questions here even though many of them are not Esky related. I do it too. Mostly because there are some many helpful members in this little sub forum.

Anyway on to the question. The DX6 is based on the last Spektrum protocol DSM v1. When I was shopping for one, I read a lot of forum threads like "Hacking the DX6 to work with more than 2 models" and "I don't care what they say I'm using a DX6 on a larger heli". Kind of made it sound like it was for small park fliers and pilots with a small fleet. The DX6 also is very limited in the range of adjustments for things like pitch and throttle curves. It’s been superceded by the DX6i which uses the new DSM2 protocol.

I know how little enhancements and bug fixes can quietly get implemented in the latest release of, well you name it. Software, cars, anything were code is running. The DX7 (and DX6i) are based on Spektrum's latest rev of their protocol DSM2. DSM2 adds new functionality addresses the Spektrum nay-sayers reliability concerns by simultanuiously transmitting on two channels. All their latest stuff, including their dual receivers use the new protocol.

You didn't mention Futaba, so I will. Until Spektrum came out Futabu was all I used. I still have a number of old Futaba radios for my cars. Love them and believe in the brand. Spektrum was new comer to the RC industry and rocked the status quo their crystal free, no interference paradigm. The big names are trying to catch up but many like JR (a Specktrum partner) simply license the technology and build the radio around it.

The magic of Specktrum is that it scans the current frequencies and automatically selects two open channels a primary and a backup . This helps avoid interference in "steady state". But if some 2.4ghz device were to come on and stamp on both of your channels, then you are toast and would have to power cycle the Tx and Rx to get onto a clear channel. The second channel was added in the DMS2 protocol and is implemented in all DSM2 receivers as well. Since the radio isn’t changing frequencies, the second channel is pretty much a requirement to address the weaknesses in the first implementation.

The more common implementation is to rapidly change channels on both Tx and Rx. This way if there is interference it’s only for a millisecond. This is referred to as frequency hopping. Or in its full name "frequency hopping spread speckrum".

As I recall, the folks at Spektrum tried FHSS but couldn't get the bandwidth they were after as well as the speed required to implement some of their advanced features . There is some latency (however small) in switching channels. Most implementations do the switching many many times a second. So the delays add up. Also frequency hopping uses a narrow band vs Spekrum's method that uses a wider band, and is called direct sequencing. As there is also some bandwidth overhead for channel switching, the already smaller data path is further constricted. Specktrum gains a fair bit of bandwidth by staying on the same channels, and gets it redundancy via running the two channels.

Specktrum has this feature (don't remember what's called) where they can sequence simultaneous commands, send them out through the serialized DSM2 protocol, then re-assemble them on the receiver preserving the time alignment. For eCCMP heli, 3 servos are constantly being controlled. Without this feature, what is actually happening is that the Tx does the mixing for the 3 swash servos, then sends out a the single servo move command to one servo, then the next then the next. There is no mixing on the Rx so when the signals arrive, they are sent to one servo at a time. It all happens quite fast so it’s not obvious. What the DSM2 protocol does is send out the each command with timing or "sequence info". When the Rx receives it assembles the matching commands and operates all three servos simultaneously.

All that said to give you the background for the Futaba implementation called "FAAST". They use the more resilient frequency hopping variant. Its constantly switching channels so it virtually impervious to narrow band interference. This method comes at the cost of bandwidth so there is less room to incorporate advanced features that consume precious time in the data stream. I couldn't find details of the FAAST protocol but as I recall they don’t have the sequencing reassembly feature. However the protocol is lightning fast so it may not be critical. Futaba is keen to point out the speed of their protocol is faster than Spektrum’s. So it’s likely that what they lack in bandwidth and inherent protocol speed, they make up for in processing speed in the Rx and Tx.

In summary, I would avoid the DX6 and if budget is an issue consider the DX6i. If you are going to be in the hobby for while consider going upmarket to the DX7, the much more expensive 9 channel Spektrum version from JR, the X9303. Or look look at some of the FAAST offerings from Futaba.
01-01-2008 08:18 PM
 
 
DougsRC
Elite Veteran
Location: MA

That is an incredible amount of good info, Gregor, WOW !!!
01-01-2008 09:03 PM
 
 
tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

I got info sorry greggor thats good stuff but Ill say futaba makes a real spectrum radio while the dx is just a channel jumper. Thats the truth I can back that up if interested but its a little dry reading.

Canton MO backyard flying club
Club President
Team No funds left.
01-01-2008 10:12 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Gregor99
Key Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Quote 
but Ill say futaba makes a real spectrum radio while the dx is just a channel jumper.

Put more accurately, its a dual channel automatic channel selector. Sure I get that the Futaba's method is consistant with the military standard of frequency hopping. And quite frankly I was more than a little dissapointed to find out a company named "Spektrum", a word commonly assocated with "Frequency Hopping Spread Speckrum" was not even using the common standard of jumping channels. However with the second channel added for redundancy, I think the design is very solid. Plus there's no delay or overhead associated with hopping frequencies. For all practical purposes it works as advertised. But, its not as impervious as they would like you to believe.

Technically, Futaba design may win out over Spektrum as it is impervious. But they've got a little ways to go to catch Spektrum and the added complexity means the devices will need to cost a little more. The biggest obstacle has is to prove to the DX7 loving public that they have something more to offer. Can you just see all the DX7 guys saying "Umm, I don't need any better protection". And since DSM2 with its second channel has successfully masked any single channel interferance, they'd be right.
01-01-2008 10:38 PM
 
 
vortechZ230
Elite Veteran
Location: Michigan, U.S.A.

DX6 here, 1000 times better than the stock system!, zero glitching!
01-01-2008 10:57 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

this is the website that convinced me to buy futaba that and I flew them 15 years ago. Also with the faasst system and 2ms frequency hop you dont miss anything. I think the DX like eflite and horizon just got there first like with the BCP.
http://2.4gigahertz.com/features/features.html

Canton MO backyard flying club
Club President
Team No funds left.
01-01-2008 11:00 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

oh and 5 points for pitch and throttle curves for heli mode vs dx 3 points was also a help in my decision

Canton MO backyard flying club
Club President
Team No funds left.
01-01-2008 11:02 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Gregor99
Key Veteran
Location: Western Wa

My DX7 has 5 points for all pitch and throttle curves as well as expo to smooth out the points.

Quote 
I think the DX like eflite and horizon just got there first

True. If Futaba had been first, when Spektrum showed up the RC community would be going "Spektrum who?" "Why should we believe you?" "You mean you stay on one channel and don't hop like the current leader."

But like some many things, the current market leaders didn't push the limits and envision the future leaving it open for an underdog. In that way, Spektrum is more like Esky. An underdog that bucked the system and envisioned a different future. You've got to love America, freedom to inovate.
01-01-2008 11:59 PM
 
 
copperclad
Elite Veteran
Location: ..

hi
the best piece of advice i ever got on radios was , it is one of the only things you will buy for this hobby that you wont crash , so spend a little extra and get the very best radio you can afford, you will enjoy it for years , three helis from now you will be glad you still have a bit too much radio , than a bit too little , HTH , dana
01-02-2008 12:09 AM
 
 
DougsRC
Elite Veteran
Location: MA

Great words of advice Dana.
01-02-2008 12:11 AM
 
 
tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

aahh yes your right gregor I was comparing apples to apples T6EX to DX6 you loose some points on the dx6 if Im not mistaken. I wanted a spectrum radio as cheap as possible I was choosing between both 6 channels so I am sure you will be able to understand my choice. Also I am not in anyway saying DX's are junk they are good radios just that Futaba packed a bit more technology in theirs. In the $200 range last year the futaba t6ex was a great impovement from the Eflite radio I had that you had to wiggle the sticks to keep it from twitching before a flight. Which made learning awful hard. I still think 6ch will be fine for me Im only using 4 so far but who knows when I start scale retracts, lights, rocket launchers, cameras.

Canton MO backyard flying club
Club President
Team No funds left.
01-02-2008 01:15 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Sgt Heli
Veteran
Location: Remlap, Al USA

Gregor, thats alot of good info that I needed to know. Thank you!
01-02-2008 05:21 AM
 
 
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e-E-Sky Honey Bee- Lama- Belt CP- E-Smart > With HBK2, what do you prefer?
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