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CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters . HeliProz

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > 611 Setup Advice
 
 
tabbytabb
Elite Veteran
Location: seattle

Hi guys, I am not sure if this is the right place but in the past my best advice has come from the F3C forum.

I have a few Joker Maxi cameraships that we use to shoot aerial video. I am running 611 gyros on all of these ships and they work extremely well. Tail is very smooth, holds great, and stops firmly.

My question is do any of you pros with lots of experience have and advice on setup?

Basically I am after a tail that holds well, but most importantly I am trying to avoid any sudden movement or jerking. This shows up probably the worst in the video. Right now I have 37% gain, run 105 K&S plastic tail blades, and have them in 3D mode. I have also turned the AFR down so that my piro rate is very slow.

I like the plastic tails since they keep the feel of the tail nice and soft. The only other thought I had was to mount the tail servo right back on the end of the tail to give the tail some extra inertia to avoid unwanted movement, any thoughts on this?

Thanks for any input you guys can provide.

Also on advice I got from this forum I added the Fun Tech F3C paddles to the ships with some K&S flybar weights and they are flying just beautifully!

Thanks

Tabb
12-17-2007 07:26 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Dr.Ben
Elite Veteran
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

A few things............

First 3D mode is really optimized for consistent piros, so you may opt for FAI mode to maximize the ability to hold the tail in a given position.

There is NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH magic about the 37% gain that was published ages ago. That gain works well for a lot of 3D, but it is NOT the holy grail. In smoothly running models with an optimized tail, you can easily run a gains close to 100% and still not cook a servo. There is, again, a BIG difference in t/r servo demands in more of a contest set up versus all out 3D.

The gyro's amplifier has several delays in it. One will soften the return of the tail back to neutral (check the book). You may want to try this one. You may also elect to run some expo in addition to your decreased rudder AFR to make the tail move off center even smoother. Finally, all reports on the BL251 servos say they are smooth as butter in flight. That will make your tail response that much smoother. Also, the BL servos are even more tolerant of high gyro gain.

Ben Minor
12-17-2007 05:27 PM
 
 
Wayne Mann
Senior Heliman
Location: United States of America

Hi Tabb,

I will assume that your Jokers are electric powered? Also you didn't mention what servo that you are using, but one of the biggest improvements that you can make is to install a BLS251 brushless servo. These servos are as much of an improvement in tail rotor holding performance over the S9256 as the S9256 was over the S9251. The biggest difference in holding ability that you will see is when the model is sitting sideways to the wind. Typically the tail rotor wants to bounce back and forth with wind gusts. The better the servo on tail rotor, the less bouncing you will see. One my 06 Caliber 90s with the StaySee fuse, the tail rotor would bounce back and forth quite a bit with the old S9251, but it got dramatically better when I switched to the S9256 and when I went to the BLS251, the bouncing all but went away. The added benefit the BLS251 should be a lot longer life span and a lot less heat build up which destroys the brushed servos.

The next thing I would recommend you trying is to cut down your servo arm so that you can run more gain. 37% is a very low gain unless you are doing 3D type flying and you are trying to keep from killing servos. AP flying is generally not very hard on servos. With that being said I still run two tail rotor servos on my Kyosho Caliber ZG with them mounted on the boom, one in front of the other and mechanically linked together via push pull. Keep in mind that that is with two S9256 servos. I have not upgraded to BLS251 servo on the camera ship, yet. I am not sure if I will drop back to one servo with the brushless servo or not. I do not have enough time on the brushless servos on my contest machines to determine just how bullet proff they are. A tail rotor servo is the most likely servo failure that you have on a helicopter. The second would be the throttle servo on a gas machine. Anyway back to the subject. Most of the top F3C contest pilots use 90 to 95% gain for hovering and around 60 to 75% gain in aerobatics, depending on head speed. Also keep in mind that we typically run a two speed set up. Our hovering head speed is usually in the 1400 to 1550 range and our aerobatic head speed is between 1850 and 2100 for some of us. I find my Caliber ZG with a 800 mm long Rotor Techs is happist at around 1550. With a head speed of 1550 my Caliber is running 85% gain. It will tolerate 95%, but I back it down some to keep any visible twitchyness out. With a 37% gain you have a lot of mechanical gain in the system which also multiplies any free play or slop in the control system and puts a lot more load forces back into the servo due to the increased leverage that the system has over the servo when using a long servo arm. Gear sets and ourput shaft bearings will live longer with a shorter servo arm.

Next I would switch fromt 3D mode to F3C mode in the gyro. It will hold just as well without being so agressive around center.

Next I would recommend turning down your control power in the AFRs and turning up the expos. I don't know how your ships are set up, but as an example my Caliber ZG is set up on a buddy box system with two Futaba 14 MZ radios. When we are ready to shoot video or stills I get the model in position and once the camera man is ready, I flip one switch. This switch does many things. It turns on the gyros on the camera mount, gives the camera opperator control of the camera mount and gives the camera opperator control of the tail rotor. My self design camera mount does not have pan, it only has roll and pitch, with gyros. In MY opinion using the tail rotor for pan is a lot more precise than a mount with pan abilities. Unfortunately this puts a lot more strain on the pilot because he has to be able to fly the helicopter in forward flight with the helicopter traveling sideways and sometimes backwards. Depending on the speed of travel this can get interesting. Anyway we used to use a mount with pan control and one day I showed up at the field to begin preparations for an upcoming shoot and when I informed my camera operator that I have made my own mount and that we no longer had the ability to pan the camera itself and that he would now have control of the tail rotor he got very nevous. He is just learning how to fly a helicopter. But once we got in the air and he saw just how precisely he could control the pan axis on the camera he fell in love with the new system. To make the system very easy for him and to keep him from getting me into too much trouble I have the AFRs turn way down and the expo is set at 90%.

If your mount has pan then I suggest that you turn you AFRs down to where you have just enough control over the tail rotor to make turn arounds and crank up the expo so that the tail rotor is very dead around center so that you do not introduce any unwanted movements which are obviously seen in the video.

I hope that this helps and maybe it will give you and others some things to think about which will improve video quality.


Wayne Mann
12-17-2007 05:47 PM
 
 
tabbytabb
Elite Veteran
Location: seattle

Ben and Wayne, thanks so much! These are just the kind of tips I was hoping for. I will order up the brushless tail servos to try today.

Wayne, I have a few camera ships that have pan, and one that doesnt so it will be interesting to see how smooth I can get the pan ship vs the no pan ship. I agree that the tail rotor is much more precise but man does it place some load on the pilot, especially when doing complex orbiting or tracking shots.

I will report back as soon as I get a chance to test some of your tips.

Thanks again for sharing this info

Tabb
12-17-2007 07:54 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tabbytabb
Elite Veteran
Location: seattle

Ben and Wayne,

Just wanted to check back in and let you know I have started to apply some of your tips and they are working well so far. I am slowly but surely learing the 611 better and better.

Here is the results from my Front Mount video ship with the 611, I haven't swapped in the BLS servo yet but hope to tomorrow.

Also what are your thoughts on Carbons vs plastic tails? I tend to run plastics since I feel the put less stress on the tail system but they tend to lock a bit worse then the carbons and feel a little bit vague around neutral in a hover. I also tend to get a bit more random bounce with the plastics.

Notice in the video the long backwards pullout, this is with K&S plastic 105s.

More to come after some more tests.

Merry Christmas!

Tabb

http://www.aerialpan.com/temp/cf30720.mov
12-26-2007 07:33 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Wayne Mann
Senior Heliman
Location: United States of America

Hi Tabb and Merry Christmas,

I was unable to view your video as I have been playing with vista on a different drive and there are a lot of drivers that are still not available for this system. I will boot back up in XP Professional later so I can watch the video.

I prefer plastic tail blades as long as they are long enough for the application. I run carbon blades on my ZG only because I don't have any plastic blades from kyosho that are long enough to handle the weight that we carry. On my contest machines I have never been able to tell any difference in performance between plastic blades or carbon blades.

As for the video and the long backwards pull out that you mentioned in your post, I would not use a maneuver like this to determine the stability of the system for aerial video or stills. When setting up the machine for aerial video or stills I only do maneuvers that will be performed in those circumstances. I only care what the tail rotor is doing in a hover and in slow forward flight with the machine at full weight with the camera mount and camera or dead weight in the mount. Also with FIVE sets of fly bar weights on the flybar and the cyclics cut way back there is no chance that I would be able to pull out of such a maneuver. I have very little control authority over my Caliber ZG as I do not want any unwanted abrupt cyclic movements as they will be visible in the video.

I hope this helps


Wayne Mann
12-26-2007 02:11 PM
 
 
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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > 611 Setup Advice
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