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A Main Hobbies . Boca Bearings . Modefo's RC Helicopters

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e-Minicopter Joker > Newbie needs a nudge in the right direction
 
 
aerreal
Heliman
Location: Springville, CA - USA

I am trying to sort through the complexity of all this radio gear on my new build Maxi Joker 2 and its just about blown my mind. What I've got is a JR X9303 Heli Tx, R921 Rx, Futaba 9252 servos, Futaba GY401 gyro w/9254 servo, and, just to add complexity to the mix, throw in one Spartan RC AP-2000i 3-D Flight Stabiliser.

This is my first helicopter build and I am completely lost. Thought I'd find something on the web to give a clue but nothing yet. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Just to let you all know, I used to be an intelligent human being. Feeling pretty much like a dolt right now . . .

Thanks!

David

"A fool and his money. . .
. . .are soon invited everywhere."
11-10-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Reidar Otto
Senior Heliman
Location: Oslo Norway

Hi David!
I am a little bit lost too, trying to find out where you are lost!
:-)
Have a look at this web, lots of info on lots of pages, really good
help!
http://www.rosaurophotography.com/html/ap_01.html

cheers
Reidar Otto
11-11-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
aerreal
Heliman
Location: Springville, CA - USA

I have referred to this site extensively during the build. Very well done, very informative, and between Rosauro and Keith Mackey's notes have gotten the airframe all together with little trouble. (Well, never mind about ball joint #526 which I have on order, even though Drawing #26 in the Maxi instructions clearly cautioned me to screw them in with care. Now I know what they're talking about. )

The big problem I ran into was in figuring out how the radio gear hooks up. I tried with the AP-2000i right away and couldn't even get the flight stabilizer to power up. Then I took the flight stabilizer out of the loop and was able to get the servos running straight off of the receiver and doing the mixing in the transmitter. With this part working, now I had the clues needed to get everything working with the stabilizer hooked up. This presents quite a learning curve for me. Wishing I had an experienced partner close by to help me with the build challenges, setup and flight training. For now going to need to rely on you folks for all of my mentoring.

Next step is to get the wiring cleaned up (sure a lot of moving parts to stay clear of!). Since this is my first time flying a helicopter I think I would like to anchor it down in four corners to give maybe 2" maximum flight altitude. This would give me a chance to really tune in the controls while on the bench without rapidly depreciating our AP platform investment.

Sure appreciate the shout back, Reidar Otto. electro212 and windyone have both pm'd and I am feeling not nearly so all alone any more. . .

David

"A fool and his money. . .
. . .are soon invited everywhere."
11-11-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Here is the setup for the jr and AP2000i gain control.

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...jr+9303+ap2000i

Prior to this you need to get your eCCPM mixing working correctly through the AP2000i. I am not familiar with JR radios but if you read through the ap2000i posts in the aerial photography section you should find all the info you need. There is a lot to get through but give it a go then post specific questions as they arise and I will try to help out. Leave the main flightpack disconnected for now until you are sure the tail and swashplate are behaving properly.

Disconnect the pushrods off the servo arms to avoid binding during the initial setup.
Ensure your servos and signal wires are connected in the right slots in the AP2000i.
Start by selecting the basic mechanical swash type in the TX so as to feed a demixed clean signal to the ap2000i.
Ensure all trims are zero in the TX and endpoints are at 100%.
EDIT: Select your swashplate type in the ap2000i manual.
Disable the stabilisation function until the eCCPM setup is complete.
If the servos are not going the direction you need then post what you have and we can set about adjusting them. Remember the swash goes down to increase pitch on the joker.
Then set the servo arms to get them as close to vertical as possible before using the trim function in the ap2000i to get them exact.
Connect the rods to the servo arms and ensure your swash is at centre travel with the brass guide in the centre of its range and zero pitch on the main blades.
Adjust your PitR, EleR, AilR to acheive full movement without binding.
Activate the stabilisation function and ensure the swash moves correctly (away from heat source). Reverse if needed in the ap2000i.

Gyro setup can be done seperately from the AP2000i do a search here for your gyro and you should find some help.

There are too many variables to post a specific guide to your needs so try and work through the steps and then ask specific questions.

Regards

Fergus

p.s Buy a good sim as if this is your first heli it could be a very expensive first flight!
11-11-2007 Over year old.
 
 
aerreal
Heliman
Location: Springville, CA - USA

Hey Fergus:

Appreciate the detailed procedure. We'll be starting on setup and tuning as soon as the build is complete. The errant ball joint should be here tomorrow, then we were looking at Ray's Authoritative DVD last night and seeing how our linkages were WAY TOO TIGHT. Shoot, I thought that a stiff setup was probably a good thing and would eventually loosen up but we definitely want to go for the delicate control like Ray enjoys with his birds.

On this note, I am starting to become concerned with bearing lubrication, realizing that I didn't take any special care to lubricate the #746 autorotation coupling on assembly. Does this mean a disassemble to this point, or is there a sano way to get the lubricant in there with it assembled? I use CASTROL R4 Fully Synthetic 5W40 in my KTM, do you think that would be the stuff to use or would Tri-Flow lubricant or Tri-Flow grease be a better lube for this? Anything else you would pay close attention to?

p.s. Already logged many crashes on FS One simulator. Figured its save me about a half million dollars so far.
11-13-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Aerreal

Quote 
Since this is my first time flying a helicopter I think I would like to anchor it down in four corners to give maybe 2" maximum flight altitude.

I hope you were kidding about this. DO NOT DO THIS! Take your time on the SIM. FYI... I spent 400 hours on the SIM and flew the MJ2 nose in hover on the first flight. SIM works! But it sure can't teach you how to stop your knees from shaking on the first few flights.


Quote 
seeing how our linkages were WAY TOO TIGHT. Shoot, I thought that a stiff setup was probably a good thing and would eventually loosen u

Use a ball joint resizing tool. I think I resized all the ball joints. Messed up one. Bought a replacement.




FYI... Fergus helped me build my MJ2.


Rosauro
11-13-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
aerreal
Heliman
Location: Springville, CA - USA

Quote 
I hope you were kidding about this.

Uh, hey hey, this seemed like a good idea. Guess I just didn't think it through. Are you thinking that the forces transmitted through the rotors will be too much on the linkages if the bird has to resist more than gravity?

Rest assured that plan is on indefinite hold.
11-18-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Seablade
Veteran
Location: floating around

Don't worry about the Joker being damaged by having the resistence of being tied down, you won't damage it that way. The damage will be done when you over-correct and do not have the freedom of movement to escape from your over-correction!
In some places way back when heli's were relatively new, some people used to do the tie down method.
It sounds like a good idea and people have learned this way, but it is not a good idea as you usually crash it.
I haven't seen you post whether or not you have a SIM. These are going to be the best training tool for you. "Realflight's G4" just came out and you can plug the JR receiver into the this version of the program.
"Phoenix" lets you use the JR as well. These are both around $200.00usd.
There is "Reflex" which is also said to be very good, but I do not know the price of it.
The Sim's will let you crash a hundred times without breaking anything.
If you dedicate yourself to flying the Sim, you can fly the heli on it's first flight like Noobs did without crashing it.

Now...you need to post some pic's!

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"
11-18-2007 Over year old.
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

You will not learn anything about flying by tethering your heli. You will learn if the blades are rotating the correct direction and also if your gyro is operating correctly but there are much safer ways to find these things out other than tying it down and starting it up. Giving it 2 inches of slack at each corner would be even worse as it could start to bounce this bounce could become amplified with each oscillation or by resonance and cause serious damage to the machine or if breaks free...

When it comes time the gyro and the ap2000i can be checked for correct operation without leaving the ground. As for learning to fly well the sim is definitely the best method. My preference is Phoenix. There will come a time when you will have to just bite the bullet and try it. Putting in good quality ground work on the sim is the best way to prepare. If the thought of taking off for your first time with a heli the size (and cost) of the Maxi proves too intimidating or financially worrying and you want real world experience then maybe buy a cheap 3s Collective Pitch heli to practice with (trex450s, blade cp, etc) or join a club and find a reputable flyer to buddy chord with you.

Regards

Fergus
11-18-2007 Over year old.
 
 
BungeeMike
Senior Heliman
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

aerreal
Congrats on getting a joker they are great machines I have 2 of them and looking at getting a 3rd. I know you are excited to get in the air but a few words from the wise and broker that I should be.

1. Keep working on you maxi and get it all perfect.

2. Find a local club if possible as fergus suggests and get some help buddy box etc.

3. Fly the sim every day

4. Get a trainer heli nitro burner like a rappy 30 and fly fly fly, I got one here RTF with tx for $500ish (I dont care for nitro but you get the time you need)

5. Forget the rope idea, if something happens it could be dangerous, helis of this size just dont break they appear to explode if you catch a main blade or even a tail. Seen it.

6. The ap2000i is not an autopilot it has limitations

7. I assume your intent is to go into AP, if so pm me or call and I am happy to help save you probally more than money. You are where I was 2 yrs ago, its a great job.

My thoughts
Aloha
Bungee
11-18-2007 Over year old.
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Aerreal

Have you considered this? ...safer than tying the heli down...

This was shot this pass weekend of a friend flying for the first time.





Rosauro
11-20-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
aerreal
Heliman
Location: Springville, CA - USA

The sim I picked up was the FS One. Haven't heard y'all mention that one yet, but it came up a lot when I was researching it originally. Still a lot of work to do on the sim, but everything's going real slow right now while I've got the bathroom tore out for a remodel. Making big points with Momma by putting her needs first at this point. . .

You know, the biggest reason I thought about tying the Maxi down was imagining powering up that big Plettenberg for the first time and finding out it had full battery power and nothing to prevent a launch into low earth orbit. Probably a lot of irrational anxiety here, but so many systems on board that are so completely unfamiliar I guess I'm just looking for some semblance of control. Sure do like the idea of building another small, less expensive bird so I can at least call myself an experienced pilot before flying the Maxi. If I can learn to make a Trex 450 do what I want it to, then the Maxi Joker should be a snap. Anybody have any objections to this choice for a CP training bird?

That local flying club idea would be a dream come true. Problem is that there is NOTHING local to Springville, save for a few giant sequoias. You guys are it. I'll have to find out who is closest to me here and when its time to fire her up for the first time then make the trek to see you.

I can't tell you guys enough how much I appreciate all of your help. This is a huge undertaking for me and a real need for our family. With all the help I'm finding here I have no doubt at all that we're going to make this work!
11-20-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Aerreal

RE: FS ONE
As I mentioned earlier on my 400 hours on the SIM, that was on the FS ONE... Practice every imaginable situation you may get yourself into. Raise the wind speed and learn to fight it. Raise the weight of the heli. Practice flying far and bringing her back. I would intentionally disorient myself of the heli's position and practice recovering... Always practice with wind... minimal 10 - 12 MPH turbulent winds. Increase speed as you progress. When you have the hang of it have someone change wind speed and direction as you fly. Enable landing pad and practice precision landing.

RE: "Practice Heli"
I'm using a Trex600 as a "test" and "practice" heli. Every electronic and flight maneuver I do will be tested and practiced on the Trex.

Oh ya, forget the 450. It's too small to come close on how the MJ2 handles. The 600 is very very close in performance.


Rosauro
11-20-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
aerreal
Heliman
Location: Springville, CA - USA

600 is on its way: WOOT WOOT!

This is starting to get fun. . .
11-23-2007 07:34 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
BungeeMike
Senior Heliman
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Wecome to the madness
11-24-2007 12:14 AM
 
 
nooobs
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

aerreal

You'll be glad you have the 600 for test and practice. This is something I should have done in the beginning. It's cheaper to fix or replace the 600. Parts are readily available everywhere.

Just remember whatever you plan to do on the Joker practice it first on the 600. i.e. Test AP2k on the Trex.

Have you researched HeliCommand?

Rosauro
11-24-2007 06:53 AM
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e-Minicopter Joker > Newbie needs a nudge in the right direction
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