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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > FAI F3C Popularity in the US
 
 
llamont
Heliman
Location: Buena Park, California

Hello all

I would like to hear some thoughts on why FAI type flying is not as popular in the United States? People say that FAI is to the Japanese what 3D is to the Americans, why is this? Precision hovering seems like it would be a solid foundation to build 3D skills down the road. I am still a beginner, but I have my goals set on being able to fly the manuvers that make up the Class 1, Class 2, Class 3, and FAI schedules before I attempt any hard core 3D.

Thanks
Loren
10-13-2007 06:40 AM
 
 
MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK,Gravesend, Kent

we have a similar situation here in the UK,

i think it was summed up at my club a few weeks ago, when i was practicing F3C and one of our 3D guys said " i love to watch you fly, but i have just not got the patience and discipline to keep moving it back over the marker to get it right, in the end i think screw it and off i go wanging it around"

I think that really summed it up for me, 3D is a different skill and mind set, f3C is also a different skill and takes a different kind of pilot, i started f3C from the beginning,
we live in a i WANT IT NOW SOCIETY, with the event of sims, people want instant satisfaction rather than to learn the basics, which f3C demands if you want to get it right.

Sadly for some that is not what they want, but wht most forget is the top 3D pilots practice hours each day to get it right, and a lot of the f3C comps now have more 3d manouvers all be it smoother, and the 3D masters we hadin the uK also had set manouvers which require discipline and practice.

Matt

I bought my Mother-in-law a chair for xmas, but she wouldn't plug it in
10-13-2007 08:05 AM
 
 
Slipknoter
Senior Heliman
Location: London UK

There are a lot of people out there who see F3C as being boring. I have even heard from someone before that its too easy! Well I can tell you from experience that its not easy. F3C requires discipline, which some 3D pilots don't quite have. Any 3D pilot who makes fun of me for flying F3C (and there have been a few) I just tend to ignore because they don't really know what there are talking about. Some 3D manouvres, such as the haymaker for example are very technicle, and wouldn't appear in an F3C schedule. Having said that F3C is about smoothness, even stops in the hovering, keeping everything the same speed in hovering manouvres, and having centred aerobatics etc. In some respects 3D turns into a contest of how low you can go, this is why I am a big fan of the 3D Masters, because it has the set manouvres round, where you need to be more accurate, and then you have the freestyle and music rounds which are very enjoyable, this tests a pilots ability in all aspects of 3D flying and is a great format. Basically F3C takes a little more time than 3D to improve, and it doesn't have that same wow factor, which is why I think more people prefer 3D. I think flying F3C can also help you to become a good 3D pilot as well and can overall make you fly a lot better.

Cheers,
Dan


All of our questions are answeres to our sins.
All of our endings are waiting to begin.
10-13-2007 10:30 AM
 
 
cyclic fever
Senior Heliman
Location: Seymour Indiana

Holy cow! I have been thinking about this very same thing too for a few weeks now. I'm wanting to get started in ernest learning to smooth out my flying while challenging myself in the discipline of F3C. I can't 3D, and frankly I dont have the cash to build a ship for it. F3C seems to be a perfect choice to hone ones flying skills when funds are low. All it takes is a modest heli and electronics, a reliable and smooth motor and lots of low nitro fuel..Perfect! All thats left is the drive, not to be better than that guy everyones wants to be, but rather, to be better than you were yesterday.

Why is 3D so overwelminly popular? So many newbies today see so many great 3D pilots seemingly defy the laws of phisics at will that when compared to the percived borish and slow pace of F3C its little wonder that they gravitate to 3D. Its like the 8yr old seeing a fireworks display on the 4th(3D) versus watching figure skating.
I see it as figure skating during a fireworks display Great control, flowing lines with bursts of "WHOA! Did you see that one!?" well placed here and there.

Mike E.
10-13-2007 10:36 AM
 
 
jeffbarringer
Heliman
Location: UK

Popularity

Interesting discussion. The webstats for both fly3dx and 3dmasters.org.uk show huge hit levels and therefore interest from Japan (consistently around 40% from Asia Pacific), while everyone tells me there's no interest in Japan. I think the interest is there, but no events.
I write this from the Singapore 3DX, and I can tell you that the interest level and enthusiam is fantastic, from Thai and Singapore entrants, and I predict a huge upsurge in 3DX events in the area.
10-13-2007 12:18 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK,Gravesend, Kent

Hi Jeff

WoW in singapore, are you promoting the 3D out there ?

As Daniel said, and rightly too, F3C is deemed to be boring, but many a time i have gone out and banged a stick in the ground and said to a good 3D pilot, okay hover over that stick in all orientations, normally after side on they give up, and land, and say " it is not as easy as it looks"

Matt

I bought my Mother-in-law a chair for xmas, but she wouldn't plug it in
10-13-2007 01:33 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Two words: Instant Gratification.

We're in a world where it's more desirable to look good than to be good. Why spend the time to actualy be a good pilot, when you can just bang sticks around in a futile attempt to keep from crashing, and look (to the uninformed, at least) like you're a good pilot?
10-13-2007 03:55 PM
 
 
ErichF
Key Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

I can't get over the comment, "I just wanna have fun."

Like, I'm doing this stuff to satisfy some masocistic bloodlust If that were the case, a hammer to the fingers is a lot cheaper.

If you have the capability to take pride in a job well done, every small improvement in man and machine is very fun, IMO.

Some say that the adrenaline rush of 3D is where it's at. To that, I say adrenaline comes from within, no matter what the task at hand is. If you truly care about holding over a flag in high winds just as much as not crashing doing in funnel, then the adrenaline is there just the same. It's a matter of perspective. Then, there's the climax from a flight well performed in front of peers and judges. And if you prepared well, the pride in taking home a trophy.

Also, I think some people are missing out on the rush of flying 80 mph manuevers that reach 400-500 feet in altitude.

I guess FAI is the geeks and nerds of heli flying, whatever. You kinda have to like working with your heli as much as flying. It satisfies the tinkerer, looking to get rid of that silly little vibe in your tail fin, or that sloshing in the fuel tank. Then it's taking a machine from stabile, solid hovering to 80mph ripper doing complex, multi-segmented aerobatics on center and on time.

I do have to agree that a major silent killer of the precision sport is the simulator. It used to be that new pilots practiced the AMA or basic classes because they needed to learn the basics somewhere. Now, they can by-pass the basics so long as they can take off without rolling over. Simulations take the new pilot from 0 to know-it-all in a matter of weeks.

I have seen a steady flow of pilots interested in the sport, but have only seen a few new faces at any of the local and regional contests. I think what happens is, people get interested, practice the maneuvers, then get stage fright and cancel the trip or find an excuse not to get to a contest. People these days are either too proud risk losing, or think they have to fly the manuevers perfectly to compete. This is NOT the truth, however. FAI contests here in the US have some of the world's best pilots in attendance, many former and current World's Team members. However, unlike 3D "contests", you aren't competing with them. You are competing with your peers in the same class. Each class is broken into standard manuevers. They are NOT intended to be flown perfectly. If you are flying them perfectly, you are in the wrong class.

When I started competing several years ago in IMAC, I went to my first contest with the mindset that it's just a well organize fun fly. Not the typical helicopter "do whatever you want" funfly, but the good ones from years past that had fun little contests to fly in...you remember, something with purpose and reward? With that proper mindset, it's just another funfly. Most judging is done by other contestant pilots. They are your friends and mentors, not there to bring you down and critisize you.

It's a tight-knit group of guys that I have grown with in the last couple of years since I started competing in RC Heli aerobatics. We all go to dinner together, and work on eachother's helis to help make the next round. These guys even work into the night under headlights to rebuild an engine and get you flying the next day.

How could anyone deny themselves of all this, I have no clue. I just assume it's because they haven't tried it. It's not like you have to stop flying 3D altogether to at least try a contest. All it takes, really, is a dedicated helicopter to setup for the type of flying. Some folks try to make one of their 3D birds try to fly this stuff. It sucks, and they get discouraged. With a proper setup, this stuff isn't hard to do at all.

All food for thought. Too bad this isn't in the Main Forum, as people that frequent this forum already know most of this.

Cheers,

Erich
10-14-2007 02:33 AM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Quote 
I have seen a steady flow of pilots interested in the sport, but have only seen a few new faces at any of the local and regional contests.

For me, part of the reason is that aside from the Nats (which is only a 3-hour drive away), all the other Contest Flying events are a minimum 600 mile drive one way. If I were to attend an event in Florida, there's 4 days of driving right there. Plus I'd have to stay at a hotel, plus I'd have to get time off from work, plus I'd have to have the money to make the trip (I'm not as wealthy as some of you people). I'm not trying to make excuses, but it is the situation it is. Far from making excuses, my wife and I have even discussed the idea of moving south in the last few months, not only because I'm tired of snow, but also because it puts me closer to my family (all in South Carolina now) and puts me closer to the events I want to go to.

For me, it's a constant struggle to find the money and the time. Believe me, I'd be there with bells on otherwise.


"I just wanna have fun"... I'm with Erich. Like I do this because someone's holding a gun to my head.
10-14-2007 02:57 AM
 
 
ErichF
Key Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

I used to have that issue. Back when I decided to give heli contests a try, there just wasn't any around. So, I got my CD license from the AMA and held one myself.

Heli contests are relatively easy to run, as the guys pretty much run it themselves. The most technical part is scoring the contest, which usually requires a laptop with MS Access and someone reliable to operate it.

Otherwise, send in the sanction paperwork, go a day before to paint the lines and plant the flags, and arrange for some type of tophy. I make my own with MS Publisher and an HP Photo printer. I make a unique certificate and place pictures of the winners on the trophy just before giving them out. I take everyone's pic during the event just in case they win. The losers get to take their printed pics home

A heli contest is probably the best event for a brand new CD. Heli funflies have a lot of red tape and begging to go along with it, for prizes, food, t shirts, blah blah.

There seems to be a large demand for an event in the farther North, such is the Ohio or VA area. Advertise and they will come.


Erich
10-14-2007 03:23 AM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Wow, you're the first guy I've ever heard refer to Virginia as "the North". I'd be careful who I said that to!
10-14-2007 04:17 AM
 
 
shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

Unfortunately, this is the popular attitude toward FAI/F3C type of flying that you will run into on this board, and I guess at a lot of fields.

Quote 
All basic manuvers,loops,rolls and hovering.I'm not saying that it doesn't take a lot of skill to do FAI,but what manuvers they do are pretty basic.

Of course folks that say things like this usually don't have all the facts or skills to fly FAI.

I feel that FAI/F3C takes a great deal of precision and patience to learn, much less master. That is what I like about it.

Gas is Great
Quick OD 26
10-14-2007 05:20 AM
 
 
Jared J
Senior Heliman
Location: VA

I agree. I got flack from guys at the field too because I didn't want to fly 3D. They would get irritated with me because, when it was my turn to fly, I would bring out the cones and try to hover and pirouette over them, etc.. trying to practice the precision stuff.

I always got the "boring" comments and the "hurry the hell up" comments. People who stopped to watch also would rather see someone tossing the heli around the air because it looked cool. I'm not one to want to risk a crash and have to buy a new heli. I'd rather do the basics as someone else suggested. That's the whole foundation, IMO.

I also don't think that inverted flight is 3D. Alot of skills needed for flying/hovering inverted are necessary for the FAI manuvers. I say this because of the comments you get because you flipped your heli. It's not 3d, it's just upside down.

3D is too chaotic for me. FAI is graceful and controlled, but to each his own I guess.
12-29-2007 03:38 PM
 
 
ErichF
Key Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

Here, Here!

Group hug time
12-29-2007 07:36 PM
 
 
Thomas L Erb
Veteran
Location: Alliance ohio

Hi All !!!! Tom here from the great white (somtimes) north (ohio lol) I agree with all that has been said here sofar. Erich you have stated our case quite well as usual ( for those that dont know him he is a great guy and a trip to a contest with the chance to meet him would make the trip worth it ). The comments about peer pressure at the local level are part of the problem. what we need is for the pilots that are interested to start gatering on the local level (50-100 miles) and just get together and fly to build interest in this type of flying. The biggest task is to get those interested in contact. I agree that it cost a lot of money to go to the nats and other contest but if we gather up more locally we can share those expenses and make the trip more feasable and build the interest in fai style flying. 3d does draw a crowd because it is exciting but if there is a group of fai guys flying and having a great time it will draw its fair share of pilots as well. Fai is never going to be a huge spectator sport it is a pilot sport.
I have gone to the nats for over 20 years and NEVER failed to have a GREAT time no matter how poorly or well i performed. I may have been dissapointed in my performance but it has always been worth the trip.
Out of all the competition's available to us modelers you will never have more fun then at a heli contest. You are competing against yourself really.I have always said he who screws up the least win's and that is my perspective of it. As Erich stated if you have a problem there is always sombody ready to jump at the chance to help out. ( this has included some giving up their backup ships to others so they can finish a contest. wow! )
I really want to figure out how to get the locals in contact so that they can get together and share knowlage and fly the manuvers. We need a pilot locater type thing for those interested in fai style flying.
Thats enough for now. lets continue this dialog Tom
12-29-2007 11:13 PM
 
 
joco
Heliman
Location: 22701

Well guys after reading thes posts I have to say that I do think many people do not want to take the time to learn precision... and I admit its probably is a little boring to watch FAI-type manuevers.

However, I am proud to say that after flying for 6 months... I cannot wait to start doing the classes anc competing in these events. Maybe its me and my background... I cam from flying competition thermal duration sailplanes. Talk about boring... .sailplanes certainly are, especially by themselves. But throw a stopwatch in there with a task and a precision landing... now things get interesting.

I think FAI and sailplanes alike are not interesting nor exciting to watch... its not until the you start to compete and the competitive bugt takes over does it get exciting.

So, for me and my buddy Clay, look out cuz here we come to fly any and all events we can find east of the Mississippi. Now if only my Sylphides would get here....
12-30-2007 08:59 PM
 
 
ErichF
Key Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

Awesome! Hope to see you guys on the "circuit"! So far the only confirmed contest for 08 is mine here near Tampa. Nashville is an always, but the dates are being hammered out due to the 4th of July.

We're also hoping for a Birmingham and a Chatti contest.



Tom, you are now my official agent...you humble me!

What we need to do is start blabbering about the Yahoo Group we have, and get people registered there.


Here's the link to the Group
12-30-2007 10:06 PM
 
 
copterviews
Key Veteran
Location: Myrtle Beach SC

New events

I agree guys, it would be nice to have some updated locations of fellow pilots (FAI). If there are enough willing to come to SC, I am sure one of the two local clubs I am a member of would love to hold a FAI event here..... Both clubs do pattern (fixed wing) events currently. We have plenty of CD's (AMA) around as well. What you guys think?
Any ideas?
12-30-2007 11:59 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ErichF
Key Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

Brett,

Maybe if the Birmingham contest fails to materialize again, we could have that April-ish event there?
12-31-2007 12:04 AM
 
 
copterviews
Key Veteran
Location: Myrtle Beach SC

Suits me, again I am almost positive one or both clubs would oblige.
When will it be known if the event is on or not? if it is still on, possible add another to the roster?
12-31-2007 12:13 AM
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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > FAI F3C Popularity in the US
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