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CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters . HeliProz

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > New Flybarless system called the gyrobot...Coming in March 2008
 
 
Ecklund1
New Heliman
Location: Brier, Washington

Regarding Flybar substitutes...

Because I am trying to learn this whole topic, can someone please tell me what would comprise a flybar replacement for a mechanical mix (mCCPM, whatever) 50 size heli? I know the virtual systems utilize gyros as well as mixers, sensors, etc.
But how much of that is required only for the eCCPM swashplates? How much of the programability is to improve stability or tune to a specific style of flying?

I have a Futaba GYA352 (N mode only) between my two cyclic servos on 0 gain, basically doing nothing right now. With the heli stock, I tried adding a some gain and it did what I expected. Very little more than make it easier to hover. If I strip the flybar and associated hardware properly, would I be able to tune the links and gyro gains to be able to be flybarless? I can't see why not. I'm looking for real answers but welcome opinion as well.

I'm still learning to fly as it is so, my intended style of flying is moot. But I will do this eventually. I think flybarless it the bees knees.

Thanks for any input,
Jeff
02-23-2008 07:05 AM
 
 
Super-Hornet
Veteran
Location: Singapore

On a flybarred helicopter:
The flybar+weight (weight from paddle itself) will provide the stability. It is actually a simple mechanical gyro. What it does is that it will auto correct the heli position by changing the blade pitch.

When u take away the flybar+weight, you lost the stability assist coming from that simple mechanical gyro. With that, the whole stability of the heli is just coming from the weight of the blades itself. In big heli, it is still flyable because of the weight of bigger heli and the blades. In small heli, it is very difficult to fly it.

The idea of using gyro to provide stability in flybarless is simply to "mimic" the behavior of the flybar+weight.
What it does is actually sense the heli Aileron and Elevator movement. Suppose the heli is subjected to external forces (like wind) that causes the nose of the heli goes down (tail goes up), the gyro sense it and apply signal to change/move the servo in such a way that the swash plate tilt backward (as if u apply elevator by pulling the nose up)

In mCCPM, each axis of the swash plate (Aileron and Elevator) is controlled by a single servo or single channel. With that, to apply gyro to it, u just simple connect a gyro between the RX and the servo (e.g. connect gyro i/p to the RX's Elevator and gyro o/p goes to the elevator servo). Think of it like normal way u connect tail servo.

In eCCPM, each axis (Elevator, Aileron and Collective) is controlled by more than 1 servo. Thus u have a mixture signal of 2 or more servo moving in the same direction and sometime move in different direction. Because of that, u cannot connect gyro directly between RX and servo. This is how a onboard eCCPM system come about. What it does is that, instead of setting your TX to be in eCCPM mode, u configure it as if you are flying a mCCPM heli. The onboard eCCPM system then take the sign from RX and then mix it up to become eCCPM. In that way, u can connect gyro between RX and the onboard eCCPM system.

In the commercial version of flybarless system (like V-Bar), not only it provide you the generic stability assist mention above, it has a lot more features that mainly design for 3D in mind.

SH
02-23-2008 08:19 AM
 
 
Ecklund1
New Heliman
Location: Brier, Washington

SH,
Thank you for substantiating what I thought I understood so far. Everything you stated makes perfect sense and I agree. However, my questions till stands.
Quote 
If I strip the flybar and associated hardware properly, would I be able to tune the links and gyro gains to be able to be flybarless?
Basically, can this dual axis gyro installation replace my flybar? Or will it not accomplish some benefit of the flybar that I'm not taking into consideration?

Thanks,
Jeff
02-23-2008 09:12 AM
 
 
Super-Hornet
Veteran
Location: Singapore

Yes, u can easily convert a normal flybarred rotor head to a 2 bladed flybarless. Your gyro should be no problem also. If I not wrong, some ppl do use the same gyro on their scale heli (flybarles and multibladed).

In 2 bladed design, I think I can safely say that gyro cannot beat flybar+weight in terms of stability. But by going flybarless u gain other good things like:
1. Very fast cyclic response (good for 3D) because u change the blade pitch directly.
2. Should perform better auto-rotate due to lesser drag.
3. U can spin the RPM much lower and yet still gain good cyclic response. This also compliment the auto-rotate because u still have good cyclic response.
4. Lesser mechanical parts to replace when crash.
5. Scale look. Which one look nicer/scale? Flybar+paddles or flybarless?

SH
02-23-2008 09:21 AM
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

Because of all of the added servo use for stability in lieu of the flybar, plus the additional electronics, does this effect servo life and battery flight time?

Give man fish and he will eat for a day. Teach man how to fish, he will sit in a boat &drink beer
02-23-2008 10:44 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nivlek
Elite Veteran
Location: Norfolk England

Quote 
Because of all of the added servo use for stability in lieu of the flybar, plus the additional electronics, does this effect servo life and battery flight time?

I would say it must do . I would also expect that the servos would be under a greater load without the flybar , again reducing their service life and further draining the battery .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .
02-23-2008 11:32 AM
 
 
lesodell3
Senior Heliman
Location: michigan usa



aah words to live by. "A side note, vigilante behaviour will be squelched!"
02-23-2008 02:29 PM
 
 
Ecklund1
New Heliman
Location: Brier, Washington

Thanks SH. I kind of had a feeling I would lose a little mechanical-gyro stability of the flybar going to a electronic-gyro only setup. I was actually hoping that by selecting the proper gear, link ratios, gyro gain and Tx setup, that I could replicate the flybar's function altogether. And I'm glad I don't need a special mixer in addition to the gyro due to mCCPM. I plan on upgrading my Ail/Ele servos for faster, stronger ones than the S3152's I have now.
The main reason I want to go flybarless is because of looks.
I guess my other reasons include; scale appearance, simplicity, higher tech, coolness factor and simply because I can. I don't plan on trying to be a 3D pilot. Mostly scale and mild acrobatic eventually. Right now I'm still learning to fly.

It's really cool to hold my helicopter in my hands in the air, with only the radio on, wiggle it all around and everything seems comes to life...
02-23-2008 07:06 PM
 
 
Crazy-Joe
Heliman
Location: Germany

Hey guys,

anybody who took a look at the HeliCommand, especially the Rigid version?
--> www.helicommand.com
Also a nice system, that does all that for less than $600. Thousands of satisfied customers so far, if you read the numerous threads.
Just to get the conversation going

Cheers,
Joe
03-25-2008 04:00 PM
 
 
Jag72
Elite Veteran
Location: 20 minutes south of Boston Mass...

Crazy-Joe

Are you working for Helicommand or something?

I have seen like 6 or 7 posts from you now talking about this helicommand rigid
03-25-2008 08:01 PM
 
 
Crazy-Joe
Heliman
Location: Germany

Only saw me ??? I guess I am not the only one talking good about that unit... and just trying to keep this thing up in conversation, as I think that it is working good and seems to make lots of people happy out there. What do you think? Tried it already or know someone?

Cheers,
Joe
03-26-2008 12:21 PM
 
 
Jag72
Elite Veteran
Location: 20 minutes south of Boston Mass...

I'm just joking man..

I haven't seen the HC rigid in action yet...but I am curious to hear more myself...

I am not an AP guy but it sounds like the AP guys really love them..
03-26-2008 02:35 PM
 
 
Crazy-Joe
Heliman
Location: Germany

Yes, indeed. I had a talk with a guy from JetCat, a famous turbine manufacturer here in Germany, on a toy fair in southern Germany 2 weeks ago, and he told me he loves the Rigid function so much. Nothing else to be implemented in his helis in the future, as the setup is so easy and the results are phenomenal.
I did not try the Rigid myself, but I am curious about it too.
The 3A works great as an assistance tool when hovering in bigger heights for doing some nice shots of sundowns or other beautiful events in nature
But actually my experience in helicopter flying is not that big, so I will keep practicing and then remove the flybars to get a better impression of the differencs.

So cheers for today,

Joe
03-26-2008 05:29 PM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

I have been searching for a vid of the gyrobot for the past few days. The only one I found until now was from the LF-Tecnik site and the link does not work anymore. THEN I FOUND THIS

Hope I can link to this site without causing any issues

http://www.rc-heli.de/board/showthread.php?t=63707


All I can say is WOW

Regards

Fergus

Regards

Fergus
04-07-2008 10:05 PM
 
 
alchemist
Senior Heliman
Location: London,UK

WOW!

The cyclic speed and control with the gyrobot looks truely amazing, I'm sold.

To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction
04-07-2008 10:28 PM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Ordered mine yesterday - before I saw the vid Now i'm really happy

Regards

Fergus

Regards

Fergus
04-07-2008 10:33 PM
 
 
alchemist
Senior Heliman
Location: London,UK

How does it compair a V-Bar? I don't think I've seen a V-Bar perform like that?

What's the pre-order deposit?

Cheers

To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction
04-07-2008 10:41 PM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Its hard to tell from one vid how it compares to vbar. But the vbar is now 3 years old remember so I would not be surprised to see new systems like this perform better. This has the benefit of being able to provide a stable platform for a camera at the flick of a switch on the TX which is what I wanted for my Joker2. It also seems to be alot easier to set up. Payment is made via IBAN bank transfer. Which seems to be very popular way of doing business in Germany. I just ordered the unit rather than preordering it so I do not know how much the preorder payment is. I have asked how long til they ship and hope to get an answer tomorrow.

Regards

Fergus

Regards

Fergus
04-07-2008 10:49 PM
 
 
Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

wow

I agree amazing.


-Cody

All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts
04-12-2008 02:37 AM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Just to bring this back to the first page. I have received a response from Lutze who states the Gyrobot will ship in "some weeks" !!

Hopefully not too far off then. Anyone with more info please chime in. I'm like a child waiting for this thing to ship

Regards

Fergus

Regards

Fergus
04-19-2008 05:24 PM
 
 
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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > New Flybarless system called the gyrobot...Coming in March 2008
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