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Fast Lad Performance . Ace Hobby . Esprit Model

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Main Discussion > Am I wasting money?
 
 
sodflyer
Veteran
Location: Frederick Colorado

I am at a bit of a toss up here, I need a new RX but dont know if I am wasting money on a pcm compared to a fm rx. I do not use the fail safe option on my pcm rx that I have now as the rest are fm. other than the filtering that the pcm does over fm what are the advantages that I get from it on a heli? The lockout of pcm on a heli does not sound good to me...on a plank I can see where it would be cool...providing... any informatin will help out! thanks Jeff.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
AirBeast
Heliman
Location: Johnson City, TN

I would just stick with regular PPM. The only PCM recievers that I have are the ones that came with the radio and I didn't have a choice to get the regular PPM. If you get hit you're going down either way. PCM has the advantage there of centering the servos idling the engine and may save some money. But if you get hit that bad someone's probably on your freq and you're going down no matter what.

The only other thing is futaba doesn't make a 9 channel PPM reciever that i know of. Only 8

Here's some good info as well.

http://www.torreypinesgulls.org/Radios.htm

Max
02-01-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
1UP
Key Veteran
Location: Claymont DE.

o come on spend some money
wooden you like a new jr pcm10x in your car?
i wol't tale your wife
james

JAMES
member of the HOT GIRLS thread
If it's worth doing, then it's worth over doing
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Inspector Fuzz
Veteran
Location: Austin, TX. Where fat chicks succeed.

I agree with Airbeast..

Howdy!!!
I whole heartedly concur with Airbeast.. PCM does give a TINY amount more precision to your heli (and the ability to run a JR 8700 servo) but aside from that I think it is worse than FM (PPM) from an interference standpoint.. If you get some "noise" like bearing, metal on metal, ignition, or just a bad pager tower,while on FM, it only "bumps" the controls. PCM however can lock out. If someone turns on using your frequency you will go down regardless of your modulation type. It is a myth that PCM recievers can withstand someone turning on on the same frequency.. If someone turns on, realizes, and turns off while you are flying, then you are still better off with FM (PPM) because a PCM system would, at the least lockout and leave you with out control for even longer...

Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
whrlybrd
Senior Heliman
Location: Little Rock, AR

Taking the focus off of losing a heli etc. and looking at safety, set up correctly PCM can allow a model to go into Throttle hold or idle and prevent it from going out of control at full tilt thus potentially decreasing chance of seriousness of injury. Theoretical I know but possible.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
sykochin
Senior Heliman
Location: GoWest

Got a pcm, boy my ergo locked up and went straight slowly (kind like hovering) inside the garage and hit the car. Boy was I mad... That was a good 40 feet away when it started.
Now I've been flying with ppm/fm, when I got hit, I rather know.....
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Optech
Key Veteran
Location: Vista/Oceanside, CA.

Yeahhhhhh..... I'd be pissed to...... damn car!

Mike

Viva La Airtronics!
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Chopper
Key Veteran
Location: Stow,Oh- oops, I mean St Louis, nope Stow again

Right you are David. NEVER let anyone talk you into a FM system with helis. NEVER, NEVER. They are fine with airplanes, but for helis, PCM is the way to go.

You may get a few responses telling you otherwise, but David and I both fly FAI, and we will guarantee you that no one in FAI flies FM. If it was better, we would use it.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
alvinrc
Veteran
Location: Mobile, AL, USA

I vote PCM over PPM.
The last little half second glitch cost me my Kalt Excalaber back about 15 years ago. Was in a low level high speed run down the runway and it tipped suddenly forward into ground.

Been PCMing with choppers since then and so far (knock on wood) no lock outs. At least long enough for me to know. Have it set to just hold last good signal.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Dyehard
Veteran
Location: Cedar Bluff, Va.

And as for the argurment that FAI flyers only use PCM because they don't want an unwanted glitch to show up while the are flying in competition, people like Curtis and Wayne who regularly fly more than 300 gallon a year only fly ten gallons or less in actual competition. The rest is spent in practice, where there are no judges to see them, but they fly PCM all the time. They are exposed to ten times as many opportunities for PCM to cause them to crash as the guy that only flies 30 gallon a year, but they still use PCM all the time, and usually have no radio related crashs. I have had too many helis that would glitch randomly on PPM, but would fly for years with no glitches on PCM. At some point in time, either system will run into interference that will shot it down, at least with PCM there is close to a hundred percent probalility that it go in at idle at that time. That added safty factor more than makes PCM worth it to me, the fact that I've not had a single glitch on PCM in the last ten or eleven years cinchs it for me.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
moose
Senior Heliman
Location: Somerset UK

In 1999 a 14 year ?? old boy was killed in the UK by an aerobatic plane that went out of control. There were lots of theories/investigations etc. as to what went wrong, these ranged from somebody turning on a TX on the same channel, faulty crystal etc. To cut a long story short, a verdict of accidental death was recorded. In the subsequent investigations, it was found that a vast number of people were ignorant as to the relationship between PCM and failsafe operation and infact what the 'hold' function, which is normal on a lot of PCM radios, does. I'm not going to repeat the findings here, but if you are interested in the inquiry and the susequent report on PCM/failsafe operation, check these links out.

The inquiry is at

www.bmfa.org/news/bulletins/bull1_99.html

The PCM inquiry is at

www.bmfa.org/news/bulletins/bull2_99.html

The BMFA are, I suppose, the same as the AMA. The PCM article deals with the operation of failsafe very well.

This tragic event made national news on more than one occasion. A number of people, including myself, checked our failsafe settings straight away and, without exception, everybody I knew had one setting or another wrong.

I now only fly PCM and I ensure that my failsafe settings are correct. I test them on a new model, heli or plank, whilst it is on the ground which is very easy to do.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Rotor
Key Veteran
Location: USA

I'm going with DavidH on this one. Safety and PCM!

My motto is this..Fly...Rebuild...Fly
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
maybeim
Senior Heliman
Location: Stockton, California

PCM versus PPM(FM) an old debate that usually boils down to money.
PCM receivers cost a little more and PPM is a lot cheaper. Fail safe PCM allows the model to go into a safe mode when hit rather than PPM that allows anything to happen. Safety wise, PCM is the only mode that can have a definite outcome, such as low throttle and level flight. I use only PCM

Paul A.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Raptor_killer
Heliman
Location: Atkinson, NH

PCM and cost

Try cyberheli for the PCM receivers. I purchase mine from him for $90. They aren't listed on his site. Just E-mail him for a quote.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Dyehard
Veteran
Location: Cedar Bluff, Va.

Sorry, David, there I go assumming again. I assumed that since we were discussing the merits of PCM and PPM that everyone involved in the discussion would know that to have the throttle go to idle on failsafe with PCM, you would have to set to go there. You know the old saying about ASS U MING. It strikes everyone now and then.
02-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
sodflyer
Veteran
Location: Frederick Colorado

Thanks!

Thanks for all of the great info!!! I was planning on getting the PCM rx but thinking I could be wasting my money if the fm will do just as good of a job screwing my heli when I get hit. So im off to get a PCM. Thanks Again! Jeff
02-02-2002 Over year old.
 
 
GMPheli
Veteran
Location: W. Bridgewater, MA USA

I feel compeled to interject one thing here. There is a negative to PCM that has not been discussed. PCM will mask small glitches. These small glitches can be an indication that something is going wrong (generating r/f that is interfering with your r/f link). PCM is designed to do this. PCM receivers receive frames at about 50 hertz. (a frame is a bundle of information that tells the receiver where each servo is supposed to be, plus some sort of verification code, a checksum I think it is called). As soon as a PCM receiver receives a bad frame, it knows it, and goes into hold (ie it holds that last known good position of all servos). If you have programmed the receiver for hold, then it will stay in hold until it receives a good frame. If you have programmed your receiver for failsafe, then it will stay in hold until a predetermined amount of time passes (.75 sec for Futaba, .25 to 1 sec adjustable for JR) and then go to the preprogramed failsafe positions. If at any time during this process the receiver receives a good frame, it will command the servos to go to those positions. If the next frame is bad, it will hold, and start the failsafe clock all over again. So what can happen is you can be flying around getting glitched and not know it. There is no way to know until you start getting glitched long enough so that you can feel the sluggisness of the controls due to all the hold time, or it goes into failsafe. If you can feel sluggishness, then you are getting hit very frequently, and are close to lockout. Granted, a lot of times the r/f noise is vibration related, and when failsafe kicks in and drops the throttle, the offending r/f is diminished, and contol is resumed. But again, it depends on the particular situation. A PPM receiver under these circumstances, will generally start glitching randomly, letting you know something is wrong. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying PPM is better than PCM. They both have there strengths and weaknesses. I just think in order to make an informed decision, one should have all the facts. I recently had a situation where I was getting random glitches with a PPM receiver on my just rebuilt from a crash, PHI Hurricane. It took me a while to figure out what was causing it, and I contemplated going to PCM. Turns out that when I rebuilt it, I installed a new metal tail rotor pulley. The pulley was rubbing on the outer race of one of the tail shaft bearings. I know this because I found a ring around the pulley when I dissasembled it. I shimmed the pulley .005" and the glitch went away for a while. Turns out .005" was not enough, as the tailshaft bearings wore (the tail rotor is almost always pushing one way), the pulley started rubbing again, and the glitch returned. Now I have one tail side plate and bearing shimmed .035, it won't rub again! I have not flown it since the .035 shim job, waiting for Spring!

Alan Angus
02-03-2002 Over year old.
 
 
W.A.
Heliman
Location: King William, Va.

Hey Sod Flyer-
Just wondering if by chance you are a sod farmer, I am, in Va.
02-03-2002 Over year old.
 
 
sodflyer
Veteran
Location: Frederick Colorado

No I am not, I chose that name b/c I fly off of a sod farm here close to town in colorado. Jeff
02-03-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

There is a way to very accuretly measure even a single glitch received my a PCM receiver.

The PCM decoder chip has an output that changes logic state when bad frames are received. The output is there for Futaba's service engineers to test the receivers.

The only disadvatage is that you need to open the receiver and solder onto the PCB as there is no external connection for that pin.

-Angelos
02-04-2002 Over year old.
 
 
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