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A Main Hobbies . Boca Bearings . Modefo's RC Helicopters

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Audacity Models Pantera 50 - Tiger 50 > Audacity Wildcat 325XS
 
 
CJames
Key Veteran
Location: Back in KC

Quote 
Folks,

I'm taking the opportunity to show guys on RunRyder something before the rest of the world knows about it. We've been working on our "450 sized electric" for the nearly two years. To be frank, Align got the jump on us and the rest of the market and while we were eager to dive in, we didn't want to just offer you a "me too" mini electric model. Consequently, we've been making haste slowly in this arena in order to develop something to really be proud of. Frankly, I feel our engineering team has done a superb job with this project and after a lot of sweat, hustle, and midnight oil (people wonder why I'm up at 1 AM? Here's part of the reason!). Anyway, we're finally at the point where I'm willing to show what we've got in order to solicit feedback before proceeding further. Largely because of the expense of the batteries in the 600 class model, we've been devoting our resources this way instead . . . am I on the right track?

Here it seems John is claiming that THEY/HIM designed it so "someone" in this senario is not telling the whole truth here?
Hummmmmmm?

Could it be that some company in china made it and John got to make some requests for changes to them to make it a better flying bird?
Or maybe it was his company that cad designed and manufactured it and he is selling to other companies for distribution?

Anyone want a pet rabbit?.............I found him on the road dead and I'm tired of hugging him
10-09-2007 05:40 PM
 
 
jbeech
rrAdvertiser
Location: Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

Chris,

One of my hobbies is as an amateur aquarist. With breeding, the order of the day is "cull ruthlessly" as you endeavor to enhance a strain, or feature. Survival of the fittest is how it's most often phrased.

Similarly, with model helicopters, some ideas look great on paper. And they may even be incredibly beautiful when translated into aluminum, but then they just don't work so good in practice. It sucks, it's expensive, but ultimately if I release it, customers (rightly so) complain bitterly. Look what happened with Align and their fan issues! Anyway, the first iteration of the tail pitch control on the Wildcat is a perfect example.

Frankly, it looked simply wonderful on paper, I mean really great! But as testing progressed we were distressed to learn it just wasn't working out. What was wrong? Well, for starters, flight testing quickly, and I mean real quickly, revealed an incredible amount of slop built up - this was "not" acceptable. Naturally we fiddlled with it in an attempt to resolve the issue. By the way, there's no manual for how to run a model helicopter company, there's a fair bit of being in a maze, i.e. following what occasionally turn out to be blind alleys that bring you up short and force course reversals. I'm learning on the job, so to speak.

Anyway, first, we learned that we had an itty bitty bind at mid-travel of the tail pitch control assembly. So slight that we actually wondered if we had a batch of bent tail output shafts, which wasn't the case. And pretty much regardless of what we did, it just wouldn't go away. In fact, everything we did just made it worse, i.e. manifested itself as more slop. And if we ignored it and just flew the machine, it instead wore slop into the system all by itself! Did I mention it happened quickly? I mean in a matter of a few dozen flights - would you find this acceptable after paying a fair price for the machine? In short, it was junk, beautiful but nonetheless . . . junk.

Basically, it's an issue of tolerances. Remember, we're pretty new at working with aluminum because our previous experience is with plastic. What happens is that at the greatly reduced scale these mini-class machines are constructed on, fit and finish that's acceptable with a 50 or 90-class heli just won't cut it. It's because the slight imperfections, which are always present, i.e. tolerance, are magnified all out of proportion. Please have patience because we're learning - quickly too.

In short, the design was imperfect, but worse, what with all the tiny bits of aluminum, was how we were shocked to discover how what began as an almost insignificant amount of bind became a significant amount of slop. Frankly, I have a pretty good reputation, add to this it didn't come easily, and I aim to keep it so we would never legitimately consider putting it on the market as things stood (I'm proud of my reputation)!

So there we were, we had a tail pitch control design that "looked" great, but like a gorgeous gal with a herpes sore on her lip, we couldn't deal with it. The design defects meant we had to go back to square one. Sure I kept it to myself. After all, I knew we would resolve the issues, but what would you have me do, blab my head off about it on RunRyder before I even had a solution? In short, it wasn't something I could proudly offer to my customers so I made an executive decision, the one I get paid the big bucks to make . . . we trashed the design and started over, i.e. we s#it canned it!

Look, it takes a lot of work to get these things done because it's not just imagine it and bingo it exists. Our latest iteration of the tail pitch control (below) is a vast improvement - in fact, it's patent pending, which is why I've been keeping a low profile and not responding within this thread (until now). For what it's worth, this piece of tail doesn't have any herpes sores (pun intended) and best of all, it actually feels like a bigger machine versus having that "twitchy" feel so common to the mini class - it's really solid.

Folks, we're not perfect, but I'm quite proud of how our machines tend to work straight out of the box, i.e. without using paying customers as guinea pigs (overly much). So Chris, yes, you are sort of on the right track because there are some significant changes coming down the pike vis-à-vis the Wildcat, but I'm just not quite ready to tip my hand all in just yet. Patience please.

Regards,


John Beech - GM (and janitor)
Audacity Models
10-11-2007 06:15 AM
 
 
CJames
Key Veteran
Location: Back in KC

I am glad you are willing to change a design that "looks great" but doesn't work right.

BTW, That new tail looks great also!

Anyone want a pet rabbit?.............I found him on the road dead and I'm tired of hugging him
10-11-2007 05:44 PM
 
 
tat2wallace
Heliman
Location: Spring Lake, NC

so your work for 2 years is redesigning a new heli, not making it from scratch??? still confused..
10-11-2007 05:48 PM
 
 
scoyle
Senior Heliman
Location: Mahomet, IL

John, hehehe... Don't let 'em get you down. You share too much sometimes and get beat up for it.

Who besides John and his staff should really gives a rats A$$ if it took 2 years or 10 or whether it was a complete design, an overhaul or whatever. The end result is all that should be important to the consumer.

Nonetheless the pokes and jabs are plentiful.
10-12-2007 01:26 AM
 
 
tracvision
Senior Heliman
Location: Tampa, Florida

I'm with you Scoyle. If you want to pick apart Johns helis, so be it. But I have better things to do...like fly my Pantera. I'm glad that John shares his details, but that is going to bring the kooks out of the woodwork also. John owns the company and he can take as long as he likes to release a product.
10-12-2007 02:06 AM
 
 
jbeech
rrAdvertiser
Location: Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

Nah, we're all kooks at heart . . . or we wouldn't be involved with these crazy creations in the first place! I do take some heat, but for the most parts it's just curiosity. Some things I can talk about, some things I best keep under my hat. I know I invite most of it by being more open than is the norm amongst other heli companies but folks, I have to confess that many, many good ideas come from you, my customers!

Did you know that one customer started a list of things he'd like to see improved on the Tiger a few years ago? He did it on the HF forum and lost of guys shared their thoughts. Frankly, this list influenced me as I worked to create the Pantera! Another customer came up with the idea of reversing the tail rotor servo so that the linkage made a direct shot to the tail rotor linkage. I had only looked at the silly thing for 18 mnths and he looked at it for 2 minutes and called me! There are other examples and in fact, I regularly consult with some of you about some skunk works type of projects. A perfect example is the big block conversion, plus some other (not yet public) projects. So overall I feel it's worth taking a little bit of heat because what we end up with is a better product!

Regards,


John Beech - GM (and janitor)
Audacity Models
10-12-2007 02:15 AM
 
 
jbeech
rrAdvertiser
Location: Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

Updated pictures and information. If you've been following this thread, please go to the very first page where I've made many, many changes.


John Beech - GM (and janitor)
Audacity Models
02-21-2008 12:48 AM
 
 
J.D. Wilson
Elite Veteran
Location: Nashville, TN

I'll take one John. This heli is looking sweet. I've been waiting a long time for a REAL 450 sized RTF and I think you will find that there are a lot more like me out there. IMO I would go with Wildcat 450. The "450" designation has become the industry standard at this point and to buck the trend to be different just doesn't seem like the best thing to do at this point. Especially since you will be going "down" to a "325" moniker. If you were going "up" to a larger number then I would say maybe. Everyone equates smaller numbers with lesser product. BMW 735 vs 325, Mercedes 300 vs. 500 etc. Again just my opinion and I'll take at least one no matter what you decide.

- formerly known as "trex600crasher"-
02-21-2008 01:24 AM
 
 
michael88997
Veteran
Location: northern texas, us

ok the more i look at the pics the more i want one... hey if you need anybody to test fly the crap out of one let me know lol


---------------------------------
hurricane 550
03-04-2008 04:12 AM
 
 
MaxAdventure
Heliman
Location: Boulder, Colorado

I need a new 400 size heli. Decided this is a great size to fly a lot of places I couldn't fly bigger helis, yet so much more stable than the 300 size. After putting together my Pantera, I'm eager for John's take on a 400 size heli. I'm fed up with parts and quality on my MX400, was pretty convinced to go Trex 450se when I remembered reading this thread. Now, I think I'll keep the MX400 till I can get a Wildcat. Re-reading everything here says I can expect the same attention to detail on the Wildcat, that I've experianced with the Pantera. I can't believe people expecting a 100% new set of parts, and have it developed in a few months. Everything takes freakin' forever working globally, and I actually like the idea of parts cross over. Keeps options open. Reuse, renew, recylcle. If there's an existing part that was done 'right', use that and fix what wasn't.

felt the need to show continued interest in this project, keep working the issues John!
04-16-2008 04:30 PM
 
 
TUFF MUFFLER
Senior Heliman
Location: RUTLAND,VT

Audacity Wildcat 325XS

any eta on the new Wildcat 325XS?
04-17-2008 01:28 PM
 
 
MartyH
Veteran
Location: Lawrenceburg, Indiana

I hope this thing is evolving as John finalizes the design or it's going to get runover. The volume of new heli's coming out in this size range and the steady drop in price and increase in bling is staggering. I hope he hasn't already missed the market. I don't know how you compete against the absolute glut of 450 machines available today and I think the 500 series is going to own the electrics anyhow. As someone else mentioned earlier too, I think that 325 designation needs to disappear. I know what it means but most people will identify it as a much smaller heli than it is. Personally I hope this project is shelved until the BBC is complete and a follow on to the Tiger/Pantera is born. I have to believe that a full on 3D capable, G10 or carbon sided 50 nitro heli is still the bread and butter.

Marty,
6 Raptors, Hawk Pro
EVO 50, Knight 3D
2 Audacity Panteras & Tiger 50
04-17-2008 08:17 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
billm
Key Veteran
Location: Liberty Lake, WA

Marty, I could not type it better.

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic
04-18-2008 01:49 AM
 
 
MaxAdventure
Heliman
Location: Boulder, Colorado

I really hate to counter the two voices I have the greatest respect for in the Audacity boards, however I disagree with the one bit in the middle; "the 500 series is going to own the electrics". I really see 500s as more of a current fad. It's my opinion that there is a plateau at the 400 size with the power and weight using current lithium polymer technology. Ongoing maintenance, transportability, battery cost, etc. takes a big jump to the next size. I'd bet when the nano LiFPO4 are in greater competition (cheaper/smaller), as well as other new technologies and we see even more/better/larger electrics beyond the 500s, and there will still be a good market for the 400 class. Have to agree with the rest, as much as I want a wildcat to replace my mx400, probably not an Audacity priority. (I'd bet John has a gasser in his brain somewhere as well, looks like a more open market, higher cash flow consumers)
04-18-2008 02:17 PM
 
 
billm
Key Veteran
Location: Liberty Lake, WA

ME WANT TURBIN PANTERA!!!
Now would that be cool or what.

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic
04-19-2008 01:51 AM
 
 
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Audacity Models Pantera 50 - Tiger 50 > Audacity Wildcat 325XS
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