RunRyder - Flybarless system - CYCLOCK or V-STABI???

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Flybarless system - CYCLOCK or V-STABI???

nicco
Veteran
Location: Sweden

I plan to electrify my Predator and I need to save some weight and more power is always fun.

What are the different between the V-Stabi and CYCLOCK from CSM??

One is the pris, CYCLOCK is half the price!

Please help me with the rest!

/N

05-21-2007 Over year old.

damaen
Senior Heliman
Location: Umeå, Sweden

Nicco,

since you already have enough CSM720's I suggest you try it for yourself to see. I am very satisfied with my setup.

Henrik

05-21-2007 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Basic differences...

V-Stabi is an integrated solution with a single easy to use computer based user interface. Adjusting the system is made as easy as clicking "faster aileron rate" or "slower aileron rate", for example. The system knows every cyclic and collective input and uses those to predict necessary tail control.

The CSM solution requires multiple hardware pieces, each of which is adjusted independently and with an interface not built or tweaked for flybarless use (for the gyros, that is), i.e., there is no explicit indication of what tweaking parameter X will do to in-flight performance.

The CSM solution seems more capable in FFF without the need for air speed sensors.

I think they both are very capable systems, just up to you what type of interface you would like to use.

> One is the pris, CYCLOCK is half the price!

Not in the US. A CSM setup of three 720s, CycLock, and USB adaptor would be $700 ($450+$200+$50). V-Stabi/V-Bar is currently available for $721. I do wish CSM prices were a little better in the US.

- John

MSH Protos

05-21-2007 Over year old.

hedgebird
Senior Heliman
Location: New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

Can you use the CycLock with 401s?

AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450

05-22-2007 Over year old.

JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

> Can you use the CycLock with 401s?

Sure, but your results will probably be less than stellar as the 401 simply does not offer the capability to adjust the control loop parameters as the CSM gyros and the V-Stabi/V-Bar systems do.

If you read through the CSM setup, you'll see that they are using drastically different parameters than would be used in a tail application. The 401 has those parameters locked and tuned for a tail application.

- John

MSH Protos

05-22-2007 Over year old.

3D Heli Ireland
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Just something else in the corner of the CSM system. With the CSM system if you decide after time to stop using the flybarless system for whatever reason, all of the individual hardware you paid your hard earned money on can be used for other applications. You would have two perfecty good tail gyros and a CCPM mixer in the form of the Cyclock. Each piece can be used seperately if you wish it.

BTW you would not be able to program the 401's as required if they would even work. From memory of the original CSM flybarless post I seem to remember Colin explaining why they could not be used, it is worth checking I suppose.

Miniature Aircraft USA
Motors & Rotors
CSM
FlightPower
SAB
Cool Power
SwitchGlo

05-22-2007 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

hedgebird
Senior Heliman
Location: New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

Thanks,

I guess I will go hunting for some 720

Once again thanks,
Christian

AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450

05-22-2007 Over year old.

Autoeject
Key Veteran
Location: Ashtabula, OH, USA

I can't speak to 401's with the CSM but they are working fine on my Raptor 50 with the AP2000i. I would guess that the 720's would have better adjustable parameters, though.

Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
Spartan RC Distributor
Outrage Helicopters

05-23-2007 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Alexander01
Senior Heliman
Location: Sweden

Jkos:

Why would you need 3 CSM gyros for eCCPM flybarless setup? I thought you only need 2 CSM gyros + Cyclock. Realraptors are selling a complete set for eCCPM, it includes 2 CSM gyros and a Cyclock.

QuickUK Team Pilot SAB Team Pilot

05-23-2007 Over year old.

nivlek
rrProfessor
Location: Norfolk England

Quote
Why would you need 3 CSM gyros for eCCPM flybarless setup?

You need two gyros for the cyclic and one for the tail . The V-Stabi has all three built in . Of course your third gyro doesn't have to be a 720 , but JKos was doing a price comparison - so had to include the price of three gyros .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .

05-23-2007 Over year old.

Alexander01
Senior Heliman
Location: Sweden

Ok, thanks Nivlek and Jkos, sounds fair to me

I didn't know that V-stabi did include a tail gyro in their unit.

QuickUK Team Pilot SAB Team Pilot

05-23-2007 Over year old.

JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Yeah, the currently available V-Stabi/V-Bar has the tail gyro built in.

> Realraptors are selling a complete set for eCCPM, it includes 2 CSM
> gyros and a Cyclock.

I see that Advantage Hobbies has the combo for $450 in the US except w/o the USB interface. Total for two 720s, Cyclock, and USB interface is $500.

> With the CSM system if you decide after time to stop using the
> flybarless system for whatever reason, all of the individual
> hardware you paid your hard earned money on can be used for other
> applications.

Excellent point.

- John

MSH Protos

05-23-2007 Over year old.

hayabusa
Senior Heliman
Location: uk

CSM fly-bar-less system is the dogs bollocks!

Hi nicco

the CSM fly-bar-less system is absolutely awesome its just 3 digital servos 2 CSM 720 gyros and a cylock 1 ,perfect for your 3CCPM model the cyclock 1 does exactly what it states drives servos at digital rate –faster than the best transmitters…electronic cyclic ring works with expo rates and mode 1 flyers….corrects CCPM geometry errors and you feel the difference immediately. The tail gyro works fine on a CSM 560 if you have one spare and works great with a JR 8900...JR 8700 so it doesn’t mean you have to buy a 720 tail gyro as well to match. I don’t want a fly bar model again ever the 50 size models our totally transformed to ballistic

it is great fun and once again CSM does it at a great price look in my gallery and go and watch 3d Heli Ireland videos

I know nothing about the v-stab product but CSM fly-bar-less is just superb.hayabusa
FLY-BAR-LESS IS THE FUTURE!

05-23-2007 Over year old.

nicco
Veteran
Location: Sweden

What are the actual benefits of a flylessbar setup?

Regards Niklas

05-24-2007 Over year old.

RussD
Veteran
Location: UK

Hi Niklas,

I have been working with Wayne and Duncan with a Flybarless Synergy and making very good progress.

Mian advantage's on the Synergy is a substantial weight saving, less drag, sustantially more cyclic rate and much cleaner / sharper / effortless flight. His 90 glow model now has agility very close to that of a very hot 50 size electric model ;-)

RussD.

05-25-2007 Over year old.

nicco
Veteran
Location: Sweden

Thanks for your Anser Russ.

I will try to convert my Predator SE to a e-bird and I need so save all wight I can.

I guess I have to buy one and try!

/N

05-25-2007 Over year old.

JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Russ,
How would you describe the hover properties of the heli(s)?

Thanks,
John

MSH Protos

05-25-2007 Over year old.

BlueGarry1
Veteran
Location: Romford, Essex, UK

What benefit is there in using the CSM Cyclock in a normal ccpm system heli (with flybar) and with digital servo's. ??

Is it worth the investment ??

Bluegarry1

05-25-2007 Over year old.

RussD
Veteran
Location: UK

Hi JKos,

At this moment in time, the hover is slightly less stable than a well set up flybar model, but we are hopeful this can be improved upon with some more flight testing.

RussD.

05-25-2007 Over year old.

RussD
Veteran
Location: UK

Hi BlueGarry1,

Cycloc with a stock flybar model provides a significant improvement in accuracy.

The Cycloc system takes non e'CCPM signals from the TX, which travel through the RX and onto Cycloc. Cycloc then converts the signals to e'CCPM. Due to the choice of processor, this dictates that all servos recieve the e'CCPM commands at the fastest available rate. This eliminates the lag you see on the Ch-6 pitch function when making fast collective inputs. This also dictates that you can use large amounts of TX trim without messing up the eCCPM accuracy.

In addition to the basic functioning, Cycloc has fully adjustable servo neutral and interaction correcters. So you can fine tune e'CCPM interactions out for both postive and negative collective pitch inputs. So if for expample; you go full collective and roll, you can eliminate any change in the collective and elevator function as you operate roll. You can also trim the roll to elevator functions and elevator to roll functions to remove inacuracies. There is also a fully adjustable servo speed function that works purely on the elevator function. This slows down the 2 servos that do not have to travel as far (when operating elevator) to enable tottaly accurate elevator inputs regardless of the speed and amount of input. You can also 'box a little clever' with the system and if say at full collective pitch & cyclic, you can adjust Cycloc so it pulls a little pitch off to stop the blades stalling / bogging etc.

I guess the simplest way to describe Cycloc, is that it is capable of making any e'CCPM helicopter as accurate as a standard single servo mechanical mixing system. The best bit is that the poorer the geomettry or the lower spec your Radio, the higher the level of improvement.

As to being 'worth the investment', I guess this is purely down to the level of accuracy you wish from the helicopter, how good the models geommettry is and the spec of the Radio / servos in use. Cycloc offers a sound improvement to the best high end current Radio system's.... but a massive improvement to those using lower spec radios.

Hope this all makes sense...

RussD.

05-25-2007 Over year old.

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Flybarless system - CYCLOCK or V-STABI???

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