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Thunder Power RC . Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Flybarless Swift
 
 
laughingstill
Key Veteran
Location: Gainesville, Fl, USA

Did not work and my computer saw it as a real player file.????

3DMP-E, Logo 6003D, Logo103D Carbon and Trex 450se Flyin Firefighter
07-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Drat. I knew there was something wrong. Sorry bout that.
Anyway, I've fixed my videocam. Even got my video downloader working again.
Will post vid soonest.

Changing for trailing edge to leading edge control of the blade grips made a huge difference in flying (can't explain why).
This bird now flies almost exactly like a flybarred bird - makes me wonder why I went through all the trouble in the first place...
07-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
laughingstill
Key Veteran
Location: Gainesville, Fl, USA

Cool. How did you change it. Flip the grips over?

3DMP-E, Logo 6003D, Logo103D Carbon and Trex 450se Flyin Firefighter
07-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Thats the thing about flybarless - you can flip the grips leading edge or trailing edge. No more links to stop you.
But leading edge is definately the way to go.

By the way, the swift head design makes it very flybarless friendly. The Hurricane has the same head design and is also equally flybarless friendly.
07-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

it may also change the delta-3 angles. The Swift has centered grip links, so i don't think it would matter.

Delta 3 affects flapping pitch. when the blades flap up and down from forward flight, having the ball offset from dead center on the main shaft will induce a little positive or negative pitch. I'm not sure how the Swift would react to this since the grip's ball links are centered right on the main shaft.

..........
Dave
07-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Dave, right on.
IMHO, the grips ball exactly centered to the main shaft makes flybarless easy for the Swift.
Because of this and by using the adjustable Follower System, the link between the swash and grip ball can be exacly paralel to the main shaft. The result - my phasing adjustment is at zero (0)!
07-17-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

I don't mean phase timing, I'm referring to delta3, I'm only slightly familiar with it.. It has to do with the distance of the ball link from the grip. The Avant Programmable head has an adjustment for it, meaning the grip arm has several positions inward or outward on the grip... You are correct, it makes it easy because you can line up the link with the main shaft so it's perpendicular, that sets the phase timing to 90°... If it was offset, then the head would have delta3 even if the phase timing was still 90°.

It puts the grip ball slightly ahead or behind being perfectly perpendicular from the main shaft. This is something that a cyclic mixer cannot adjust for, and I only have a simple idea of what it does. For a head that has an offset delta3, changing from trailing or leading edge control would affect the delta 3 entirely. The adjustment I'm referring to cannot be done on the Swift, it has "zero" or "neutral" delta3 since the grip ball is centered directly on the main shaft.

Does that make sense? It's kind of a tangent, I was more thinking out loud. Most heads can be converted between leading/trailing edge control, flybar carriers swapped around, mising levers flipped, grips flipped, washout flipped, it can be done but it won't necessarily make the heli fly better because it changes more dynamics than simply leading or trailing controls.


Edit,
I did exactly this with a fully blinged T-Rex 450SE (flipped the head around to have leading edge control, and flipped all links and levers so the mixing would function correctly), and even at 3000rpm headspeed, it felt very smooth but had very slow flip and roll rates. It seems the general consensus would lead me to believe leading edge control is smoother, but trailing edge control is more responsive.

..........
Dave
07-17-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Thanks for thinking out loud Dave.
You put to words what I can't (thats why my posts are all short and idiotic ).

Anyway, you are right on all accounts. What you described as "Neutral" delta3 makes perfect sense, and that is what comes stock with the Swift CNC head. Thats what I meant by being flybarless friendly.
Others have had to add grip-ball extensions to get the ball centered to the main shaft (not a pretty sight!).

As for responsiveness. You are right again. When I had the blades on trialing edge, the responsiveness was freaking scary. Now on leading edge, movement is predictable, just like a flybarred bird.
I could however increase the response movement by increasing the cyclic ring limit. I've got it now at 25 % (100 % being zero limit).

Any link to understand Delta 3? What does the 3 stand for?
07-17-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Its ok. Found something... if I had brain power to understand whats writen below, I'd be building rockets instead of helis.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=97416


Delta-3:
In a conventional teetering rotor, the application of 10º of cyclic stick will result in the swashplate [control plane] having a 10º tilt. This, in turn, will change the plane where an observer sees no variation in cyclic pitch [no feathering plane] so that it will have a 10º tilt. This cyclic pitch of the blades will then result in a 10º tilt of the disk [tip path plane]. It should be noted that the stick input [control plane] and the rotor output [tip path plane] have identical value of 10º. It should also be noted that if the cyclic stick was somehow instantly advanced by 10º then the disk will tilt by 10º within one revolution.

A teetering rotor with delta-3 operates differently. To set the boundaries of delta-3 it should be mentioned that 0º of delta-3 will be the same as no delta-3. In other word, the amount of flap equals the amount of pitch, and the scenario in the previous paragraph will take place. We could say that 100% of the change in cyclic stick pitch gets through to the blades.

If there happened to be 45º of delta-3 then every degree of flap will remove one degree of pitch. This means that none (i.e. 0%) of the change in cyclic stick pitch gets through to the blades

Lets now assume that the rotor has 20º of delta-3. This means that approximately 70% of the cyclic stick pitch get through to the rotor. In other words, the application of 10º of cyclic stick will result in the swashplate [control plane] having a 10º tilt. This, in turn, through the modified pitch horn, will change the plane where an observer sees no variation in cyclic pitch [no feathering plane] so that it will have a 7º tilt. This cyclic pitch of the blades will result in a 7º tilt of the disk [tip path plane]. In other words, the stick input [control plane] and the rotor output [tip path plane] are not identical.

It should be noted that if the cyclic stick was somehow instantly advanced by 10º then the disk will have tilted by 7º within one revolution. There is still a discrepancy of 3º. This means that the tip path plane will tilt 70% of the 3º in the next revolution, which is 2.1º. This means that the tip path plane will tilt 70% of the 2.1º in the next revolution, and on, and on, to infinity. In other words, with delta-3 the tip path plane will have a slower response to the instruction from the control plane.


Phase Angle:

In an articulated rotor, the phase angle is related to the frequency of blade flapping. A greater flapping hinge offset means a shorter blade, which means a higher frequency and a faster flap to position. Because the blades flap to position sooner, the instruction to flap must be delayed, so that orientation of the cyclic stick and the orientation of the disk are in the same direction.

In a teetering rotor, delta-3 does not change the frequency of the blade flap (teeter). All that delta-3 does is reduce the amount of flap (teeter), not the speed at which it flaps. In other words, the teetering hinge with or without delta-3 has a frequency matching that of the rotor. If the phase lag angle is reduce by 20º, from 90º to 70º, then the location of lowest and highest teetering will be 20º further around the mast. There will still be 180º of increased pitch and 180º of decreased pitch.
07-17-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Site updated:
http://malaysia-rc.com/index.php?topic=562.20

I try to explain rotor phasing, flybarless swash movement, etc.



Cheers.
07-17-2007 Over year old.
 
 
superdave420
Senior Heliman
Location: Sunnyvale, CA. USA

Very Cool machines,

"I see" said the blind carpenter as he picked up his hammer and saw.
07-18-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
hedgebird
Senior Heliman
Location: New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

Hi Adrian (borneobear),

I still want to see some flying of your bird.

Kind regards,
Christian

AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450
07-18-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

YES HEDGE! I know!
I just fixed my cam. All I need is someone to take the video. Sign... my Missus just refuses to go to the field, cuz the grass is long...

Will do it soon.
07-19-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Okay. Video uploaded. Its again a big file, but Youtube is failsafe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEvrioTU-U
07-20-2007 Over year old.
 
 
hedgebird
Senior Heliman
Location: New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

Wow Adrian, that is great to see you fly this bird truly a masterpiece

AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450
07-23-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Yup. Flying this bird feels great. The way it flies, I still can't believe its flybarless.
I've converted it to an AP ship, so its flight is more boring now. But I've found Flybarless is more or less = vibrationless.
07-25-2007 Over year old.
 
 
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