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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Flybarless Swift

aerton
Veteran
Location: Longueuil, QC, Canada

Why is CSM CycLock CCPM Manager used in flybarless conversion?

06-23-2007 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

hedgebird
Senior Heliman
Location: New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

Because we want to do the eCCPM "computing" locally on the heli and not using the transmitter. We are using 2 extra gyros, one for elevator and one for pitch - we need the CL1 to calculate the movement on the three servos on the head. The CycLock takes input from tx + gyro on the the elevator and pitch channels, and the collective straight from the tx.

I hope this explains it somewhat.

Kind regards,
Christian

AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450

06-23-2007 Over year old.

aerton
Veteran
Location: Longueuil, QC, Canada

But doesn't logo flybarless electronics already have one?

06-23-2007 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

the "logo" flybarless electronics is called the V-Stabi, which I'm using. Yes, it has 3 gyros in one aluminum case (tail gyro is included), and a mixing computer in another case. The standard (non-mixed) inputs go through the gyros first, then the computer mixes the outputs to CCPM mode to move the swashplate.

If you're using CCPM, you need a mixer, no questions about it. You can use the Tx mixing if you don't want to use gyros, but if you are using gyros, you'll need an onboard mixer. The V-Stabi has it's own mixer integrated into the software, but the CSM gyros are just gyros, the Cyclock is the mixer.

Here's why an onboard mixer is required when using gyros...
Gyros ONLY work on one axis with a straight input form a single channel (ie: NO mixing). This means the radio cannot be set to any CCPM mode, no matter what heli you're using, no matter what swash type you're using. The Tx outputs need to be for single channel only.

The gyros' outputs (straight elevator or aileron signals only) then go into the mixer, which tells the 3 CCPM servos what to do. Mixing is required for CCPM, but since the gyros work on a single axis/channel only, the mixing happens after the gyro signal is processed.

In other words, the gyro can't receive a CCPM signal from the Tx as an input signal, because the signal is already mixed.

For the Swift using gyros, a mixer is required because it's 120° CCPM only and the gyros can't work with that as-is.

..........
Dave

06-23-2007 Over year old.

aerton
Veteran
Location: Longueuil, QC, Canada

Yes, that makes sense.
So the cyclock thing is actually useful if used as a "home made" flybarless system to connect to 2 external gyros stabilizing each axis?
V-Stabi doesn't need it at all, neither it needs the external gyros cause it has them all inside already.

They say this cyclock can be used with their csm720 gyros. Those gyros are what AVCS and remote gain type primarily to be used as tail gyros, right? I wonder how does it all work together, how can the gain be adjusted and stuff?

V-Stabi probably has an extra channel to adjust the "gain", right?
Can you also adjust the "mode" of it from radio or it can be only done through PC? Or is gain and mode essentially the same thing?

06-24-2007 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

there's a whole thread on the CSM system, it will have all the info you need. Essentially the 720's are fully programmable, not just gain. The dynamics of main rotor stabilization are way different than just the tail, though other gyros will work, the 720's are capable of being tailored perfectly for the job. The Cyclock is more than a "homemade flybarless mixer". It can also be used to drive digital servos, as it can output a fast framerate that allows it to control the servos faster and more accurately than just the Rx signals. It can take any radio and give it CCPM mixing, and it will drive the cyclic servos at exactly the same time so it can also eliminate signal-based interaction. So, it's useful even if your radio already has CCPM mixing, it's a really cool little device.

CSM wanted to develop their Cyclock/V-Bar product as independent components (two gyros and a mixer) to allow for easy redeployment for other uses, the V-Stabi is very expensive and purpose-built, it can't be used for anything else but it's integrated as an "all-in-one" solution with complete software, so it's easier to program.

As for the V-Stabi... You're correct, it IS a mixer that also has it's own integrated gyros.
The V-Stabi has an auxiliary channel that can be used to switch between two "banks" (bank0 and bank1). Each bank can have entirely different settings, anything that's adjustable in the V-Stabi software can be programmed differently for each bank.

Some things that can be adjusted from the V-Stabi software:
Adjustable framerates for high end digital servos
100% customizable swash types
swash gain (throw)
collective limits
collective "bounce" (gain)
electronic cyclic ring (to eliminate excessive swash deflection in extreme angles)
paddle weight
paddle steering intensity
independent Bell/Hiller ratios
independent elev/ail gyro gain
independent roll and flip rates
speed mixing (for use with the pitot tubes for "pitch up" compensation on FFF or FBF)
adjustable gyro and Tx deadzones
Tail: overall gain (sensetivity)
stopping gain
acceleration gain
constant pirouette rate
independent L/R travel limits
and a handful of other tail-cyclic/collective mixes.

So, you could essentially have two ENTIRELY different setups with the same heli. Use Bank0 for AP, remove the camera equipment and use Bank1 for insane aerobatics.

..........
Dave

06-24-2007 Over year old.

aerton
Veteran
Location: Longueuil, QC, Canada

Geez, that's a lot of features. It's got to be really interesting to play with them all. They should give more than 2 banks.

I get it why they use 720, cause I didn't understand how could a tail gyro be used for stabilization.

Thanks, that cleared a lot of questions for me.

Dan

06-24-2007 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

btw I just edited that post to include a little more information.

..........
Dave

06-24-2007 Over year old.

aerton
Veteran
Location: Longueuil, QC, Canada

With V-Stabi you will be able to have a stabilized, predictable and incredibly agile machine, I believe, something close to completely flybarless, yet with stabilization. That's what it seams to be its purpose.

06-24-2007 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

Yes, the gyros stabilize the heli but it still allows for extremely aggressive maneuvers because you're not limited by the flybar's capabilities.

The V-Stabi (or any other gyro system) replaces the flybar for two primary reasons. One, to stretch the heli's maneuverability envelope, and two, increase the blade's efficiency by eliminating the drag and slop from the flybar.

CSM's system has similar capabilities, but it's just different. Apples and oranges.

..........
Dave

06-24-2007 Over year old.

borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

I maidened my flybarless Swift today........ all I can say is WOW!

Lots of mods. Not easy, but maaaaaaaaan its worth it.

Here's my 3 gyro stabalization system, also called the Gyro Cube

Check out this forum for all the details (report not completed yet though):

http://malaysia-rc.com/index.php?topic=261.0

Cheers.

07-03-2007 Over year old.

Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

wow, that's really tidy! how are you controlling gain, a set of Y-harnesses?

..........
Dave

07-03-2007 Over year old.

borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Yup!! Y harness for the roll and pitch gyros - goes to the Rx channel 5. Tail gain wire goes to the AP2000i channel 4.

Gain for the pitch and roll gyros can be adjusted from the radio, while the tail is fixed at tested rates.

07-03-2007 Over year old.

Dennisu
Veteran
Location: Surrey, B.C. Canada

borneobear

I just checked your build site and noticed that you ground your thrust bearing to the same OD. They are supposed to have different OD's (and ID's) to make them work.

07-04-2007 Over year old.

laughingstill
Key Veteran
Location: Gainesville, Fl, USA

Yeah but the thrust bearings that come with the plastic grips will not fit in the CNC grips without some persuasion.....RON

3DMP-E, Logo 6003D, Logo103D Carbon and Trex 450se Flyin Firefighter

07-04-2007 Over year old.

borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Quote
I just checked your build site and noticed that you ground your thrust bearing to the same OD. They are supposed to have different OD's (and ID's) to make them work.

Yup. I knew that. But who's gonna wait another 2 weeks to get them in? After modding the stock trust bearings, installed, etc. The grip moves smoothly. Can't ask for more than that.

07-04-2007 Over year old.

borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

My DIY Follower System, originally the CNC Washout Guide...

Complete and un-editted details in here (page 10 onwards):

http://malaysia-rc.com/index.php?topic=261.0

Cheers

07-04-2007 Over year old.

Dennisu
Veteran
Location: Surrey, B.C. Canada

borneobear

Quote
Yup. I knew that. But who's gonna wait another 2 weeks to get them in? After modding the stock trust bearings, installed, etc. The grip moves smoothly. Can't ask for more than that.

Yes but if you went to the trouble to modify them why not do it so they are right? Or did you do them in pairs to the right OD?

07-04-2007 Over year old.

borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Quote
Yes but if you went to the trouble to modify them why not do it so they are right? Or did you do them in pairs to the right OD?

Do you honestly think the trust bearing supports the blade grip by its OD?

07-04-2007 Over year old.

Dennisu
Veteran
Location: Surrey, B.C. Canada

borneobear

I should hope to kiss a duck that it does. We are not talking radial support but axial support to pass the centripetal force to the spindle. Inner bearing tight on blade grip (larger OD)and loose on spindle(large ID) and outer bearing loose on blade grip(smaller OD) and tight on spindle(smaller ID).

07-04-2007 Over year old.

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