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3D Heli Depot . JR-Spektrum . Gyro Hobbies

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Flybarless Swift
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

Yes, however I crashed right before I left to meet her in Florida... lol

It will be airworthy by this weekend. I htink I still have some pictures stored on the camera from before we moved, so I'll try to dig them up.

..........
Dave
05-29-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Crashed???
Well at least you don't have to replace the flybar.

Thanks Dave.
05-29-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

hehe, that's true...

Ben and aerton are both correct... With the mechanical system, there's real beauty in that. It's pure mechanical ingenuity and it works extremely well. Ben is right, we need cost driven DOWN! However, new ideas are never cheap. Developing new ideas and "out of the box" thinking can be extremely expensive, do you think the very first piezo gyros were cheap and how many pilots do you think "nay-say'd" them? The only problem with the flybar, is that it is rather limited, it has hit the crest of what its capable of without going to insanely expensive and overcomplicated hydraulics and other integrated controls. It is accurate and tunable, but the electronic systems still have room to explore.

The v-bar can easily mimic what the flybar does simply by "feeling" the same movements, but can also go beyond that and make corrections too small for the human eye to detect and make those corrections at programmable amplitudes. It can also push cyclic limits farther, allowing for faster flip and roll rates. Varying conditions can have varying responses. The "computers" can read and react far better and more accurately than any mechanical system already can. I'm using my V-Stabi to have two ENTIRELY different flight modes, one is very responsive and has a feature called "collective bounce" where the collective movement has gain, move the stick quickly and the servos will pop a bit farther than that to make a qick stop even quicker. The other is far more docile and stable, making landing much easier.

The expense of purchasing more electronics is the only hurdle. Once they become popular, the cost WILL subside. Electronics are rarely damaged, especially solid-state gyros which are NOT as brittle as everyone thinks they are. The V-stabi gyros are all in one aluminum shell. only a cable connects them to the mixing computer. Destroying this cable however, that would suck. Even still, worst case scenario, you send the gyros back for some repair. I've had a few horrible crashes and none of which even scratched the electronics.

Progress is nothing without pioneers.

..........
Dave
05-29-2007 Over year old.
 
 
hedgebird
Senior Heliman
Location: New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

What follower system should I use for my Flybarless Swift Head?

CN1108 - FOLLOWER SYSTEM FOR THE 4-BLADED ROTOR SYSTEMS


or
CN1108A - ALUMINUM FOLLOWER w/ 2 BB (10mm) FOR 3 AND 5 BLADE ROTOR HEAD


AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450
05-30-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

neither unless you really want to use a nice machined piece like that.

here's essentially the same thing I did with my Swift. This thread on RCG is from an electric R90 conversion with CSM's gyro system.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631783

And here is from a V-Stabi thread, post # 129 uses only one washout link, again similar to what I've done but I used both, one for each side. The unused portion of the washout link was cut off just the same. I drilled two holes through the washout base to affix it to the main shaft like setscrews instead of the "clamp" idea here.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...t=602831&page=9

I'll post a picture of my swash driver when I get home, at least it's still in one piece... (:

..........
Dave
05-30-2007 Over year old.
 
 
hedgebird
Senior Heliman
Location: New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

Thanks, very interesting, I wanna save whatever I can

Now all I need is the cyclock

gyros are in the post soon I hope

AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450
05-30-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Oh maaan... those CNC parts are just poisonous!!!

Hi Dave, No pictures yet? Still fixing that heli?? Must have been one hell of a crash.
05-31-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

hehe yeah.. the crash wasn't that bad, $60 in parts minus blades. The problem is waiting for them to arrive. ):

..........
Dave
05-31-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

here's some shots from an older setup, some things have changed byt the Vstabi system is the same. Changes are: longer ball links for the grips, metal grips, wiring rearranged slightly.

Here's the whole shebang. With a full metal head it looks REALLY clean and sounds smoother in the air without the flybar and 800 links.



Here you can see the swash driver I made from the washout base. To help the CG, I also mounted the head 20mm lower on the main shaft. This does the same as raising the CG, and I haven't had any clearance issues with the blades/boom. The washout base had about 4mm cut from the top and bottom. What was left of the bushings came out (small brass ring), so I epoxied it back into place. Since the head sits 20mm lower, the washout base had to be cut shorter to prevent interference and binding. I drilled two small holes into the meat of the washout base and threaded two bolts into it to act as locking screws to holt it in place. This washout base has adjustable phase timing and still allows articulation of the swashplate. At 0° pitch, the driver links are perfectly horizontal allowing even deflection in all directions.

The V-stabi has a "virtual cyclic ring" which reduces swash throw in the corners (such as full left cyclic and full aft cyclic combined), where the swash can potentially travel beyond the intended limits. This driver also works well at pitch extremes so I can give full positive or negative collective AND full cyclic and the links are never straightened out. The swash driver links should NEVER be straight as it could result in them retracting backwards and wedging the swashplate incorrectly. The machined aluminum pieces previously linked are longer and avoid this potential problem completely.



Here's the brain. All commands for pitch, ail, ele, rudder, and gain go into the V-stabi unit. From there, it's purely fly by wire and the V-stabi does the thinking on top of your inputs. Gain can now control much more than just tail gyro gain, it can set two completely different flight modes. Want the same heli for AP or competition 3D? hehe, flip a switch and you got it.

Dual Rates are still effective, they can control the overall signal limits for a certain channel. If you want the heli to fly the same in one flight mode but have two Dual Rates, it only changes the cyclic flip/roll rate, just like rudder DR does for piro rates. a dual rate of 80% will roll, flip, or piro slower than a dual rate of 110% on the specified command.



I'll take newer pics once she's been rebuilt.

..........
Dave
05-31-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Eco8gator
Key Veteran
Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL

Hello

The question was asked wheather a reasonably priced flybarless system was beeing worked on.... And I agree the price for some of these systems is absolutly nuts. And I guarentee that most people wont use 90% of the avilable adjustable parameters.

I decided to make my own version of the flybarless stabalizer, and I did it with the 401's simplicity in mind.

Features:

*2 Preset levels of lock(one for 3d and ond for hovering and general crusing...I personally like staying in the 3D mode all the time). Feels like a light flybar and a heavier flybar.

*Both mode selectable through and aux switch which also sets the gain for each mode(like the 401)

*Adjustable travel via the ATVs avilable in your radio(IE no annoying computer interfaces)

*Does the CCPM mixing and sends the information out in sync

*Has 2 dip switches to change the direction of the compensation(like the 401). Im adding this to the board design but I use jumpers at the moment.

*Cyclic ring.


I have it working well on a TREX 450 SE and Im working on getting a vid of it in action. It was quite challenging comming up with a decent control system while maintaining a simple interface but Im pretty happy with it now.

Minus the time i spent developing this system the component cost is quite low. I understand there is some marketing, packaging, and manufacturing but not enough of that to justify the prices Ive seen so I made my own...I figure I just paid a fortune for my MS/BS in electrical engineering, I might as well put it to some use

Check my gallery for pics.

C
05-31-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

OH MAAAAAN OOHHHHHH MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!!

THAT IS ONE SWEET BIRD Dave!!

It would be utterly insane NOT to go flybarless.

GEEEEEZZZZZZ!!! (thats about the most intelegent thing I can say right now).

Again. WOW!
06-01-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

hahaha it looks hella better with the full metal head and the cleaner wire routing. The only thing I don't like is the bulbous preggers battery. lol, it's quite the protrusion... I'll get some more pics in the sunlight, I JUST finished the repairs/rebuild. I have to cut one more vert fin and it's done. The last one fractured in the crash.

the rotortech blade root melds perfectly smooth into the outer edge of the metal grips. it makes it look like a seamless transition from the rounded aluminum grip into the thick carbon blade root. That makes the best looking grip/blade I've seen yet.

I've got MAH 555's on it now, they have a strange chord taper toward the tip. the chord at the root is 56mm, at the tip it's 46mm. Seeing as the tip is where most of the lift is generated, I hope they fly well...

..........
Dave
06-01-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Sweet!! Do post pictures soonest.

I won't be going with the V-stabi. Its waay beyond my budget.

What I've got is an AP2000i and trying to get two gyros (GY240??) to work on the eileron and elevator.

Anyone out there know how to connect the two gyros to the three servos??? I have nooo idea how to do it...

Wait a minute....
Mechanical mixing signal + gyro ---> AP2000i ----> CCPM mixing.

I THINK I'VE GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

06-01-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

I'd recommend better gyros, the 401's work better, but the best would be the CSM 720's. They're more expensive, but you can always sell them easily. They are fully programmable through the PC (ALL parameters), and Colin Mill from CSM has programming dedicated to make them work perfectly for cyclic control. Otherwise a normal tail gyro may be more problematic.

..........
Dave
06-01-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Hi Dave. Well, MarkWebber has used the gy401 before for cyclic control, and has been quite successful.
However, as you say, the CSM Gyro is best. But at $250 bucks a bang.... maann... might as well go with the v-stabi.
I'm only using flybarless for AP reasons.... aiming for minimum vibration while still having stability.

Still waiting for those amazing head shots dude.
06-01-2007 Over year old.
 
 
hedgebird
Senior Heliman
Location: New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

I love this tread!!!

still waiting for my SL720s

Wheelhaus, that is one good looking swift!

AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450
06-02-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

hi Hedge,
What mixer system are you going to use with the CSM 720? Based on my limited readings, thats the gyro to go with...

sigh... THE COST! THE COST!!!!!
06-02-2007 Over year old.
 
 
borneobear
Senior Heliman
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Hey Dave, are these stock Swift links?? Or are they from another heli/brand?
Thanks.
06-03-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

if you're using the standard length shaft and head and everything, the links you'd use are the standard swash-bell mixer links, the long one.

Mine are roughly 20mm shorter because the head is 20mm lower. I think my links came from the Swift link set, the metal is the same color. I can't remember exactly where they came from but that's my guess.

..........
Dave
06-03-2007 Over year old.
 
 
laughingstill
Key Veteran
Location: Gainesville, Fl, USA

Nice Wheelhaus, pics were worth the wait..Ron

3DMP-E, Logo 6003D, Logo103D Carbon and Trex 450se Flyin Firefighter
06-03-2007 Over year old.
 
 
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