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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C Aerobatic Positioning
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Hi everyone,
For a long time now, I've been operating with the understanding that the top and bottom of the double loops in F3C marks the top and bottom of your flying box. ie, you start your stall turns at the same altitude you entered your loop and you enter the rolling inverted loop at the same height as the top of the loops.
Your rolls then are supposed to cut through the center of the loops.

Is this correct? It's just that the vertical positioning of the aeros came into question at a recent comp round we had, and I just want to get some clarification. The FAI rules make no mention of this.

Si

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Simon Lockington
01-24-2003 Over year old.
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toto
Senior Heliman
Location: Argentina

Simon,

The rolls are supossed to be tangents to the bottom of the loopings, this mean, at the same line where you start the normal loopings.

Best regards,
01-24-2003 Over year old.
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a_korandr
Veteran
Location: Chicago, IL

rolls are supposed be cutting thru the center of the loop. all the vertical maneuvers are supposed to have exactly the same radius as loop. top of the cobra is the top of the loop. loop determines the boundary of all other elements.

in other words there is not code requirements, but there is some kinda style (unspoken) requirements to fai aerobatics.

that is what i had been told by fai pilots.
01-24-2003 Over year old.
 
 
toto
Senior Heliman
Location: Argentina

Andrey,

I don´t agree with you, I was part of the Argentinean F3C Team at the last world championship (Muncie, USA 2001), and the you have to make the rolls at tha same line where you starts the normal loops, the cobra roll, etc.

Best regards.
01-24-2003 Over year old.
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a_korandr
Veteran
Location: Chicago, IL

Toto,
and this is the whole point - it is not written anywhere.

But from a subjective point of view creating a 'flying box' by the the first loop you add some style to your flying. And believe judges do appreciate it.
01-24-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Andrey,
I've been flying under the same impression that you have for ages now, but at the last comp we got real serious about rules and this came up, now we're flying in the style that toto describes.

I take it then, that a judge cannot really mark you down for either then as it's not written in the rules?

Si

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Simon Lockington
01-25-2003 Over year old.
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Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Gidday David,
I hear you on the positioning you're talking about, what I was talking about was the entry/exit points of manuever compared to the others, ie, the stall turns enter at the same height as the loops etc?

Si

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Simon Lockington
01-26-2003 Over year old.
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Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

David,
Do you have the email addresses of some high level (World or National level) judges that I might contact on these points?

Thanks,
Si

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Simon Lockington
01-27-2003 Over year old.
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toto
Senior Heliman
Location: Argentina

Simon,

This is the comitee for the F3C in the FAA

Chairman USA Horace G. HAGEN hhagen@att.net
Member Australia Roger CHAPMAN rogercathy@optusnet.com.au
Member Australia Manfred DITTMAYER manfred-dittmayer@aon.at
Member Belgium Guy VAN DER SCHELDEN guy.vanderschelden@belgacom.be
Member Canada Phil NOEL pnoel@dccnet.com
Member China (People's Republic of) Huo BAOJING
Member Czech Republic Jiri HAVEL jiri.havel@worldonline.cz
Member Denmark Benthe NIELSEN rotordisc@teknik.dk
Member Finland Juha-Pekka NURRO juha-pekka.nurro@nokia.com
Member France Daniel CHOUREAUX Daniel.CHOUREAUX@wanadoo.fr
Member Germany Tobias SCHULZ Tobias.Schulz@t-online.de
Member Greece Antonis PAPADOPOULOS apap@hol.gr
Member Israel Efraim KASTIEL kastiele@netvision.net.il
Member Italy Lucio Della Toffola luciodt@tin.it
Member Japan Takayuki SAKAI zsakai_t@d1.dion.ne.jp
Member Netherlands Frits van LAAR f.w.v.laar@chello.nl
Member Norway Dag ECKHOFF dag.eckhoff@c2i.net
Member Poland Ryszard WITKOWSKI, M.Sc.
Member South Africa Lance LEVIN natlev@global.co.za
Member Spain José M. LARRUGA MASUERAS
Member Sweden Carl-Otto STRANDH carl-otto.strandh@edstrand.trellgroup.se
Member Switzerland Jürg SCHMITTER Jschmitter@swissonline.ch
Member UK Mark TILBURY model.world@virgin.net
Member Yugoslavia Milutin TOMKOVIC


Best regards,
01-27-2003 Over year old.
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len sabato
Heliman
Location: Champaign, Illinois

Hi All!
For what it is worth, I always try to enter each maneuver at the same altitude that I start the first aerobatic maneuver at. If I chose to do my rolls at 30' , and I am 50' out, then I maintain the same line for the rest of the flight.
The only exception to this is the Inside Loop with 1/2 Rolls, since this maneuver begins at the top. I will try to have the bottom of the loop completed at the same altitude as the other manuvers.
For presentation, it is important to determine the positioning (line) you will do the Aeros at, then try to keep consistant throughout the flight.
If you do stall turns for your turn arounds, it helps to keep you on the same line with regards to depth. If you do an aileron style turn around, then you will not be as consistant with your placement.
This is of course easier said than done with everything else you need to think about, but it can be done with practice.
Of equal importance is not to be DIVING when the maneuver begins. I think you will loose more points for not acheiving level flight than you will for being slightly high/low.
As David mentioned, all maneuvers are of course centered on the centerline of the flight line.

Hope this helps.

Len Sabato
01-27-2003 Over year old.
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Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Thanks guys,
We're just trying to make sure our interpretation of the rules is the same as everyone else's.

Thanks,
Si

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Simon Lockington
01-28-2003 Over year old.
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rockier
Key Veteran
Location: Las Vegas

I have the rules and would like to know which one you are talking about. We are doing a competition here in Las Vegas and would like the F3C class done right. This is not as formal as the NATS but would like everyone to know the rules and do the maneuvers right.

We are hoping that anyone that is interested in doing Class I, II ,III, and F3C can try it before going on to the NATS.

len sabato,
From the rules I have the A6 maneuver is started at the top of the loop and the bottom would be at the same plane you started the other maneuvers and you would finsh at the same plane as when you entered the maneuver. The rolls would be at the same plane as when you start your 10m level plane.

Is this what you are talking about.

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01-28-2003 Over year old.
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Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Talking about F3C here, but we apply the rules to our other classes here too Clubman (beginner) and Sportsman (intermediate).

Si

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Simon Lockington
01-28-2003 Over year old.
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rockier
Key Veteran
Location: Las Vegas

I am talking about the F3C rules. 2002 Edition re-read post.

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01-28-2003 Over year old.
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Hawk4flyer
Senior Heliman
Location: Deland,Florida

The only thing I can add is this. I flew pattern for a while. The box is considered a photo of your manuver. The lower boundery is the nominal line. i.e. rolls are done just above that line. + loops start with that line. unless the loop is started like a split S. Then the line is just below the upper boundery. But every judge see's things different.
01-31-2003 Over year old.
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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C Aerobatic Positioning
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