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Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies

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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > whip antenna and Carbon blades
 
 
winger
Senior Heliman
Location: Indiana

I'm running a revolution whip on my X-Cell SE graphite(98 ver). I was told today that the NHP blades would cause interference with a whip antenna.

It was suggested that I change back to a long wire. I thought the long wire in close proximity to the carbon frames was bad!

Anyone got input!

Thanks!
Winger
09-23-2001 Over year old.
 
 
alfred
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia, New South Wales, Mid North Coast

I have a whip on My X-Cell 60 that is pointed to the front inside the Canopy. I also fly NHP Carbon Sports 660 mm blades and even with the heli from a long distance coming towards me and the TX antenna pointing straight at the heli(weakest possible signal) I have no problems what so ever.
Flying the heli at high speed in circuits around myself doesn't cause any problems althought the TX signal has to go straight through the Carbon fibre main disk.
Unless their is something wrong you shouldn't have any problems.
09-23-2001 Over year old.
 
 
Dyehard
Veteran
Location: Cedar Bluff, Va.

NHP nor any other carbon blades will cause interferance with a whip antennae. Thousands of helis are flying with carbon blades and whip antennaes of all brands. Some of the Fai fliers use whip antennaes and all use carbon blades, and they fly so far out on their turn arounds for some of their manuevers that you can barely see the heli.
09-23-2001 Over year old.
 
 
Maxx
Key Veteran
Location: Shreveport Louisana

Winger, as has ben said; Carbon Blades don't cause interferance when using Carbon (or any other type!) of blade! Neither will Carbon side frames, tailfins, etc. About the only thing I've ever heard of causing a problem was a canopy made of C/F...with the antenna installed inside...and in that case I believe the antenna was touching the canopy and causing problems. I don't know who gave you this "advise" but I wouldn't take any more from them ...I think he was out to get a FREE whip antenna...Yours!!! Maxx
09-23-2001 Over year old.
 
 
Ken B
Elite Veteran
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Me too

I'm running a Revolution whip on my Freya, it's got V-blades. No trouble there PCM.

I'm running a Revolution whip on my Sceadu with NHP Carbon in PPM no problem there either.

Ken B
09-23-2001 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
DangerousDick
Veteran
Location: Cheshire, England

Yup, what they all said.
09-23-2001 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Ah; the old "carbon fiber causes rf interference" story rears it's ugly head again. This one has been around for a loooonnnggg time, and pops up every now and then.

winger, here's a little tip for assigning credibility to these old saws, wive's tales, whatever you want to call 'em. Ask why. Somebody says carbon rotor blades will degrade the performance of a base-load antenna? Okay; why? HOW does it happen? If you can't get a sensible explanation, then take that for what it is worth.

I have been hearing this particular one for over ten years. Some people I have a great deal of respect for believe it. But I have yet to hear a sensible explanation on how carbon fiber interferes with radio signals, servo operation, or any of the other electronic ills it is supposedly responsible for.

I have had three helicopters with full carbon fiber frame sets; two of them had c/f blades, and ALL of them had Revolution base load whips. Yup, you guessed it; not the first rf problem on any of them.

You don't want to run a wire antenna along the boom, regardless of it's composition; bad juju. Other than that, a regular wire antenna will work with c/f frames as well as plastic or metal. A properly wired and installed Revolution whip will do just as well.

The question of diminished range on base load whips comes up. When I started helos, I was told to use the Dean's whip. I did not, because I knew better than the guy who was teaching me about helicopters. I had all this plank experience, see, and I wasn't about to put some Mickey Mouse POS like that on MY $1000 investment.

After the second time I stepped on the dangling wire antenna end and damaged it, I decided that perhaps my mentor knew something I didn't about radio antennas. But I was concerned about range, so, after I cut the rx wire and attached the whip, I mounted the rx in an old Ugly Stik that was my radio/engine test bed and all-around experimental model. I flew it out to the limit of my vision, which at that time, with that model, was what I estimate to be a quarter mile. Curtis Youngblood regularly flies his machine so high that most folks require binoculars to see it.

The moral of that story is that, while a whip may indeed reduce the rx's effective range, I just don't think one can get a helicopter model far enough away (assuming a properly tuned and functioning system) to "lose" the signal. My opinion; YMMV.

Steve
09-24-2001 Over year old.
 
 
alfred
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia, New South Wales, Mid North Coast

Steve
Let's get this in perspective.
Is it an old wifes tale?...Not really......BUT...
Will it cause more problems then a normal Aluminium Frame? DEFENETELY NOT!!!!!
Carbon fibre is electrically conductive and as such if they rub can cause electrical noise JUST LIKE AN ALUMINIUM FRAME DOES.
No more no less.
An antenna inside a carbon fibre Canopy will be electrically shielded to a large extend, so this would be a bad idea as the canopy is a solid inclosed object surounding the antenna. This is why you heard the horror stories of planes crashing which had full carbon fibre fuselarges and the antenna was run internally.
But just because the antenna is mounted "on" a carbon fibre frame that doesn't mean it causes blocking.
So unless you mount your whip by taping it directly fully inline onto the mainframe (and I don't think anybody would ever do that) then you won't have a problem!!!!!
Will your whip cause range reduction? Yes...So..
Instead of a range of 3 km+ you now have 2.5 km range. Do you think that this will be a problem? I don't think so, unless you fly your heli with binoculars.
So Steve
You are correct.
Let's put these rumors to rest and with simple commen sense used in your radio installation and commen care taken it just simply is not an issue.
09-24-2001 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

{An antenna inside a carbon fiber canopy will be electrically shielded to a large extent...}



Personally, I've never heard of full carbon plank fuselages having a problem with that. Of course, I haven't heard much about full carbon plank fuselages, period... I HAVE heard of the new super-opaque film coverings (the ones that are "silver" on the inside) blocking the signal. For a different reason, you don't want to run an internal antenna on a plane that has full-length metal pushrods.

But from your above quote, I gather you're saying that a c/f canopy will actually block radio waves? Expand upon that, please.

Steve
09-24-2001 Over year old.
 
 
- Location: -
revolutioh whip / carbon fiber

I just ordered 2 revolution whip antennas for for both my raptors. not that they have any carbon fiber in the plastic but if they work for 1km that's good enuff for me.
09-24-2001 Over year old.
  WV   EDIT
 
 
Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

Any material that is conductive will form what is called a "Faraday
cage" which will shield against electromagnetic radiation. Even if the shield is "leaky" the resulting range will be drastically reduced.
09-25-2001 Over year old.
 
 
alfred
Senior Heliman
Location: Australia, New South Wales, Mid North Coast

Thank you Doug
Due to our time differences I wasn't able to reply yet as I saw the question this morning before going to work.
Their is more to it but that alone is enough.
as with the full carbon plank fuselarges we started to use them as we got into F3B type high performance Gliders which were launched on whinches like missiles to gain great height by the time they came of the line. Using long narrow fuselarges to increase the tailmoment we soon found them to break near the main wing atachment or near the vertical fin.
This was when we started to use carbon fibre extensively which then caused problems as most of us ran their antenna wires full length internally.
Once we ran them on the outside the problems disapeared.
09-25-2001 Over year old.
 
 
winger
Senior Heliman
Location: Indiana

Thanks!

I thank everyone who replied. This was a sanity check. I've been around this hobby in and out for several years. I found the original statement to be stupid and unfounded. I also realized there are times when the whip would not be appropriate. However this was a non-issue in my case.

But I wanted to see if opinions and or technoloy had dictated a different point of view.

Thanks again!

Winger
09-25-2001 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

FINALLY!!!

An explanation with substance; as opposed to the guy who heard it from his cousin who heard it while in the third stall on the left in the crapper at the Nats...

I looked up "Faraday cage"; interesting stuff. And when you think about just how electronically "dirty" the air is around ANY major metropolitan area, you wonder how we don't get shot down on a regular basis...

In Wally World yesterday, I saw a little girl who couldn't have been a day over twelve clutching a cell phone. She probably had a steenkin' pager too... :-(

Steve
09-25-2001 Over year old.
 
 
freestyle
Veteran
Location: Redmond WA USA

carbon fiber antenna guide tube

Somewhere out there is a company making a carbon fiber antenna guide tube. It's not a perfect Faraday cage, but it's close. I am not making this up. A friend of mine brought one to the field a year or two ago, and couldn't figure out why his range check failed at 5 feet. I read about it again at RCO just a little while back (right before the popups drove me away), so apparently they're still out there. Be afraid.
09-25-2001 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 


Location:

whip antenna

I did in fact order 2 revolution whips for my Raptor 30's. Since the raptors have no carbon fiber in them I should have no problems with their use in my helis. It is good to know that under different circumstances they may not be the best for everybody.
09-27-2001 Over year old.
  WV   EDIT
 
 
rckid
Heliman
Location: Livermore, CA

Carbon Antenna Guide

Hey freestyle,
Is this what you are talking about??

http://www.heli-world.com/centuryhe...XXX/Centup.html

If you scroll down almost to the bottom and on the right you will see it. It is called a Carbon Graphite Whip Antenna.
09-27-2001 Over year old.
 
 
z11355
rrMaster
Location: 10000 is enough time wasted.

Steve,

The Faraday Cage effect is why you see people wrap Rx's in
grounded aluminum foil and why when you open a box containing
sensitive RF frontends, they are enclosed in a metal box/cage.
Also Futaba's 'reasoning' behind painting the outside of the 501
w/ aluminum paint and why the inside of better electronics have metal
shields and RF 'seals' in order to get FCC certification (it keeps the
electronic noise INSIDE the box).

This is also the reasoning behind govt. high security TEMPEST certification.

Did you know that someone sitting outside your window w/ an
antenna and proper setup can catch your computer keystrokes just
by the RF noise the system generates?
09-28-2001 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Thanks for that tidbit, Howard; if I see any suspicious characters lurking outside my window, I'll bust a cap on 'em...

Seriously, I understand how this Faraday cage effect, using a graphite canopy enclosing a base load whip antenna, could inhibit reception. That still doesn't explain the claim of how a carbon FRAME, rotor blades, etc., could do it. IOW, said claim is basically groundless; which is what I figured all along.

For that matter, does anyone even produce a graphite canopy? Aside from being frighteningly expensive, an all-black machine is a visibility problem waiting to happen. Don't ask me how I know that... :-(

An interesting, educational thread.

Steve
09-28-2001 Over year old.
 
 
z11355
rrMaster
Location: 10000 is enough time wasted.

I think Modelsport does (or did).

Also, I think some machines come w/ CF windshields (like the highend Eagles) so you could get into a 'shadow' situation if the antenna
is enclosed under the canopy.
09-28-2001 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > whip antenna and Carbon blades
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