RunRyder - X3D setup

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e-MS Composit Hornet > X3D setup

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

Send some pictures when you can

Raz

11-25-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

As soon as I get my hands on a sheet of CF or G10 or something as stiff I'll get on it - I'm probably going to use S3110s instead of the HS-56s I'm using now which won't fit inside the canopy laying flat so it might have to wait until I can afford 'em - Otherwise maybe I'll steal some HS-55s out of something -

Maybe someone'll like my layout enough to mill it in metal and send me one.

My H2 is going through some major mods this winter - I'm working on a new tail mod at the moment - Gonna need a new gyro for that it looks like - New servo layout mod - Need new servos for that I think - I'll have to snatch the first DX7 radio I see on a shelf if I can afford that at the time - Also looking at a new lipo charger - I'm just a poor boy so it might take awhile to acquire things - But I'm excited to tinker it all out.

11-25-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Here's a horrible pic but maybe you can see the layout I'm thinking of trying -

Notice all the servo pivots are centered to the main shaft to have the same central pivot as the swash plate - Longer servo arms to reach out to the swash ball links should produce a 1:1 deflection ratio with the swash plate - I can't tell if it'll work better or worse just in my head so I'll have to build it to see.

11-25-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

I'm not sure I understand the benefit of centering the servo pivot to the main mast versus not if the servo links are kept at 90 degees on both axis but I don't see why your layout shouldn't work.

Raz

11-25-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

I'm not sure there is a benefit either except that's the only way to get a 1:1 servo arm to swash plate deflection ratio which I'm curious about - I believe it should eliminate exponential differences between servo arm and swash plate deflections which may or may not be beneficial - I dunno.

11-25-2006 Over year old.

husafreak
Senior Heliman
Location: NorCal

It may be awhile till I can try something- gotta paint my T-rex 600 canopy and fix my T-rex 450 (belt snapped) but I think the side layout is good. And I think good old wood could work well too for a 'flying' mockup. But I fly planks so I have a garage full of modeling wood. I like having the servos on thier sides just block them up so the servo arms can rotate full travel. You said you have the good grey double stick tape so it'll be solid. But most glider guys just put tape on the side of the servo and glue that down... Hey Capt. you mentioned needing a charger, check out the Thunder power setup, I wrote about my experience with it on the battery forum. When you hook up their charger/balancer/battery system you are in a new league of smart chargers! Eric

11-26-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

I have a TP-205 balancer I bought when it came out which was supposed to be followed by a TP-505 charger to match but it kept being delayed and became a TP-605 and still no show a year and a half later - So TP kinda pissed me off there as I've been putting off buying a better charger all this time waiting for that one to come out to mate with my TP-205 balancer -

(Now I see they're promising a TP-535 charger again - Not holding my breath for it this time)

Now I'm looking at something with a lot of bang for a not a lot of buck - This is the charger I've got my eye on at the moment - A $60 FMA balance charger -

http://www.fmadirect.com/Detail.htm?item=2116§ion=45

Good idea about the plywood though - I should have thought of that being an ex-plank builder myself - I just don't think about wood on helis anymore.

11-26-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

Not to steer off topic here but I recently picked up the 1010c along with the TP205v. I've been able to safely charge my packs at 3C allowing for a 15 to 20 min charge. I have only one complaint that I'm waiting on from ThunderPower. I've currently only charged the 11.1v 1320Mah packs and have found that the packs cannot be discharged past 9.6 to 9.9v without the charger giving an error message. Once this has happened, the charger will not charge the pack. From my experience the rule of thumb has always been 3v per cell but it doesn't seem to be the case with Thunder Power.

Cap, I do like your proposed setup. I'm having a heck of a time maintaing a solid E073 when applying fore/aft and/or roll cyclic. I'm about ready to pull my hair out

Raz

11-26-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

I don't know if my theoretical layout will eliminate interactions or not until I try it - But that's what I'm curious about and eager to experiment with it - My future DX7 will have better swash performance than my present DX6 so then I'll be more keen on mechanical interactions.

-

The FMA Cell Pro charger I linked to is limited to 4 cell packs - But it does have a restore function to nurse packs back to health from over-discharged.

11-26-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

To go into a little more detail about my layout theory -

Let's use fore/aft swash articulation for example -

On this axis the front swash ball link is farther from the mast than the other two swash ball links - So the front servo arm has to deflect farther than the other two servo arms to deflect the swash plate to any degree - Using our usual short length servo arms at higher swash deflections the front servo arm has higher deflection angles then the other two servo arms which means it has high exponential and needs to be deflected more and more in relation/ratio to the other two servo arms to continue tilting the swash evenly and levely -

But if the servo arms are the same length as the swash ball link distances from the center of the swash pivot (center of servo arm pivot to center of servo linkage pivot distance equal to center of swash pivot to center of swash ball link distance) then the servo arms and swash plate acquire pretty much a 1:1 deflection ratio - Meaning the swash plate should deflect more nearly the same angles as the servo arms so the arms aren't deflected to high rotational exponential values.

I don't think the numbers would really amount to enough for a real obvious difference - But I think it would kinda level the playing field some by keeping all the deflection values similar and minimal.

Did that make any sense? - It's all in my head so it may all be hogwash too.

11-26-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

I'm not sure I totally understand you here. I'll have to reread it but generally sounds sensible. I hadn't thought about the longer distance between the main mast and the elevator swashball versus the roll swashballs. I guess this explains why I've been so confused why I had to shorten the elevator servo link to that of the other two servo links??

Well besides that, I think I've given up on the servo mounts that I purchased from Intruder. I've spent hours trying to rid cyclic interaction but no luck. All parts move freely and were equally measuered BUT I'm having a hard time believing it's the mounts. I have found that you can't equalize the roll servo links because of the position of the servo pivot to that of the swashball. One has to be shorter than the other. It's a minor difference, but is it enough? I can only assume the same holds true for the Duzi mounts as well?

You mention that the DX7 has better programing ability versus that of the DX6. What programming are you referring to? Could there be programable mixes in my 9CHP that I'm not aware of that will get rid of cyclic interaction??

Raz

11-26-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

I wasn't talking about programming - Just general eCCPM latency etc - Swash dance during swash articulation - Such as collective bumps with swift cyclic commands -

The 9c and DX6 happen to have the worst eCCPM performance of all the radios JKos has tested - Both have actual visual latency between the three channels during swash articulation -

I watched the center swash ball on my BCP do a little dance while giving swift roll commands when someone said they were experiencing this and I had to test my own - The center swash ball would dance during swift cyclic commands but not during slow cyclic commands so it's definitely latency causing it.

11-26-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

WOW! I'm very surprised to here that my 9CHP could be causing this! I had no idea that this was even possible. Is there a thread or a webpage from JKoS that talks about this? I was hoping to see Spectrum release a nicer Tx before taking the plunge. Either that, or wait for Futaba FASST to hit the air. Maybe I can pick up a used a Aitronics radio?

Also, I understand you are familiar with the Duzi mounts (similar to Intruders). I assume you are also familiar that one of the "aileron" servo links has to be shorter or longer than the other by a quarter turn. Any thoughts here?

Also, I understand per Duzi's servo mount instructions the elevator servo link is shorter versus that of the aileron servo links to maintain a flat swash plate. I haven't had the chance to use the Duzi mounts yet BUT it seems that all the servo links should be of equal length if the center of the servo pivots are all equal, yes?

Raz

11-27-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Here's JKos' latency thread - http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t172571p1/

-

I sold my ATX Stylus earlier this year - JKos just sold his after testing the DX7 - GimbleFan is the happy new owner of it -

-

I would think Intruder's mounts are better than Duzi's as his line the servo arms up under the swash ball links nice and orthogonal - Duzi's geometry is angled to the swash/mast -

-

I'm not aware of the aileron link needing to be shorter than the pitch link - A quarter turn is hardly anything at all though - I'd hate to try to be that precise cutting threads in a ball link -

-

I use the Duzi raced servo linkages and the front one is shorter than the rear ones because I don't think the servo pivots are all at equal heights (I have my front servo removed right now so can't confirm this at the moment - Hard to eyeball anyways).

11-27-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

I'll take a look at the JKos thread, thanks!

Regarding the servo links, I'm referring to ONE of the servo links of the TWO aileron links. One link has to be shorter (or longer) than the other by a quarter turn. This means that one of the two aileron servo links is shorter/longer than the other.

Also, I question the shorter "elevator" linkage versus that of the aileron linkage because it seems Intruders mounts allow all 3 servo pivots to sit at 0 degrees. Meaning, if you take a profile view, all the servo pivots are aligned at the same height BUT, if that's the case, then why does my swashplate tilt back when all my servo links are equal (or as close as I can get them)?

Raz

11-27-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

If you're referring to the two rear servo links beings turned at different angles to snap onto the swash then they are actually 1/3 turn different from each other - But whether that means they're different lengths depends on how the links were assembled/threaded -

-

I never investigated the reason for the short elevator link as I just assumed it was because the Duzi mounts don't hold the servo pivots at the same height - I do remember wondering why it was short and adjusted all the links the same and finding the swash tilted aft and assumed that was the reason -

I'm going back to a tray anyways so I don't need to know - The Duzi mounts are nice and rigid but they're anything but orthogonal.

11-27-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

Yes, that is what I was referring to and a 1/3 looks right after testing. Now that I'm thinking, you're right. I suppose I found this difficult because I never had a starting length to work with. Intruder didn't send any linkage instructions which has made it a tedious build.

After reviewing the JKos thread, I wonder if my Berg 7p has any effect on it's latency. Who knowm it may even be helping. It likely doesn't matter given the 9C FM results, Wow! I guess we know why Alan is such a fantastic pilot

p.s. What are you using for a Tx? That ATX Stylus looks like a winner. I'm going to pick one up. What you guess I could pick up a used one for?

Raz

11-27-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Man the DX7 is virtually just as fast as the Stylus and it's only $350 - I sold my Stylus for about $400 with the heli card in a RTF heli package - That guy sold it with card to a friend of mine for $200 I think -

I've been using a DX6 this year as all I fly is small electrics anymore - Both planes and helis which made using the Stylus a hassle because it needs the heli card in to have eCCPM and that basically transforms the radio into a heli only system so to use it with full featured planes you have to use a memory card and swap out the heli card - Plus the last time I flew my H2 with it I took a radio hit and crashed - But I haven't had a single glitch/hiccup the entire year I've been using the DX6 so between the reliability and convenience it's been a worthwhile trade off while waiting for a better DSM system.

11-27-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

I also fly planks along with my choppers and wasn't aware that the Stylus used a modular programing system. I suppose this could be a nuisance.

One thing I've always liked about the 9C are the digital trims and the menu ease from Helis to Fixed wing to Glider. Digial trims are really nice to have, in the event the trim levers get bumped while the Tx is off.

I recall seeing that Spektrum just released a new 3.5g 6ch micro Rx for the DX7. pretty impressive.

Raz

11-27-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Well don't just run out and buy a new radio to test this theory - When you get tired of tinkering with your mechanics just borrow someone else's radio for a few minutes and see what happens - If your problem goes away then maybe you're on to something - If not then maybe you've ruled that out without paying for it.

11-27-2006 Over year old.

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e-MS Composit Hornet > X3D setup

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