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e-MS Composit Hornet > 3 Blade Conversion for the CH46 Seaknight (long post)
 
 
meatbomber
Senior Heliman
Location: Klatovy, Czech Republic

I saw a guy getting the 3 Blade Heads for his CH46 Tandem and i thought ... WELL I NEED THIS

So i went and ordered from MS-Composit direct the following Parts:

1 ea TE-373 Rotor Heads for 3 Blades CH-46
2 ea TE-490 CFC Main Blades 25,5cm for 3 Blade Heads

(sorry but i have not enough webspace therfore the pics were stored at a different forum... just didn't get around getting a Gallery at RR yet...)

Because i'm in the Czech Republic shipping was lightning fast. Ordered on monday night and delivered wednesday noon.

Note that the blades comared to a stock Hornet 2 Blade have a LOT less chord width.. they are also very flexible.

This is the complete package as arrived.

This are the parts for 1ea rotor head. Everything necessary to build up and a complete installation / Setup manual was deliverd

A closeup of the rotor head parts and the swash plate.

The Swashplate wasinspected and found to be very well glued together. The inner Metal part has all the holes to switch from a 120° 3 Blade to a 180° 2 Blade or even a 90° 4 Blade setup

first thing i don't like so much... the set screw in the E-143 Anti rotation Arm is stripping the thread very easily in the soft plastic of the part.. be VERY carefully tightening this setscrew.. this part is a good canidate for a future upgrade!

Ok here goes the build (my estimate build time in brackets):

*)First you need to get access to the mechanics e.g. take the fuse off (0:05)
*)Disconnect the swash plate connectors forward and aft and loosen the main gears then pull out the complete front and aft head assys. (0:05)

Now the chassis is ready for the installation of the 3 Blade heads.

These are pretty straight forward to build and building the 3 Heads consist basically only in mounting the bladeholders (pre equipped with bearings) to the head block. (0:10)

Then you start stacking the Head components on the main shaft. E.g. you slide teh anti Rotation arm on , then the head block on top, from the botom the swashplate and as the last part the shaft collar that you took from the original head assembly. The Shaft has machined flats where you'll later on lock the parts with setscrews. if you tighten them only lightly you'll have some lateral movement that you'll later need to adjust everything to get the setup correct. (0:05)

Now the tricky part... getting all the distances right !
It's VERY IMPORTANT that the bottom of the Head Block to the Bottom of the Shaft collar has the same distance on both heads otherwise you'll have different pitch values! Using a caliper i adjusted both to match the asked for 33mm (i mesured from the top of the shaft collar for ease of use of the caliper 28mm). (0:05)

Once these 2 Values are fixed you can start setting up the pitch links. During assembly of the 6 pitch links i took extra care to make them all the same 35mm of length (0:15)
Then I started linking up the pitch links with the blade holders and the swashplate as per the mounting instruction where the most difficult part was to get the phase angle correct because the anti rotation arm is made from VERY soft plastic and the setscrew doesn't lock very strongly and you need to take special care not to strip the thread. The Aft head can be built to mirror the pic in the instructions, the front head has to be built reersed because of the reversed rotating direction (that caused a while of headscratching until figured out ) (0:20)

The it's easy slide in one head into the chassis and onto the main gear. Put the setscrew of the gear into the machined flat. Slide in the other shaft and set the phasing of the blades so that they match exactly. (0:10)

Finished Estimated build time 1:10

Now toss in about 1 hour for sting up and adustment and you'll be in the air after 2 hours !

Now to the ballancing.. There is a bit of vibration (might be caused by a bit of an oops during the first spool up where the aft blades caught my pullover and i had a blade strike on the spine... there was very little vibe before) not too bad but annoying.

I reballanced the Blades which were already closely matched by finding the heaviest blade and then ballancing the other one by one against the heaviest.. Vibrations got less but there's still a lot of movement that i think comes from my main drive train. oh well

Well put the fuse back on (0:30... furking little screws falling down all the time)
now it's REALLY finished




Boy i'm really happy with the result !
All in all i can say it's not a cheap update but you get something for your money! That's 2 complete CP heads for the price of a CP upgrade and then 2 set of blades.... The scale look is awesome with the new head (yea i know i should have gotten rid of the blue... might do that later) AND (as far as my short setup flights can tell me) the heli is flying smoother than ever before !

THUMBS UP MsComposit!!

Made another dusk VERTREP mission for Photos and video

Here's the pics, video to follow (don't expect too much tho had to do it with my digicam)




Flight Report Update:

Had a couple of flights in the past few days and i am VERY pleased with the flying qualities of the 3 Blade rotors a compared to the 2 Bladers.

The Overall control respons is crisp and smooth without being nervous. There is no "wobble" as i had with the previous heads that was associated to relatively weak dampening o-rings and a lot of play overall in the heads.

Gyro gain can be set the same and the respons makes for a smoother heli, where it would start actively hunting on the 2 Blade heads.

Climb performance is drastically increased.

Duration i can not comment yet as usually i flew for 10-11 mins but that was with an outside temperature in the mid 20°C and not around freezing that i have now.
Currently my flight time is 8-9mins. I think tho that the rotor RPM is quite high and could be tuned down quite a bit .. will do some experimenting in that respect.

Tail drop... well it's still there but IMO it's easier to control than on the stock heads and seems to be less pronounced... but i've also flown quite a bit with the Tandem now and might have gotten used to just keeping the stick forward when flying forward.

IMHO MS should market the Tandem with the 3 Blade heads right away.

Did a couple of more packs and experimented a bit with lower RPMs. Found out that the Helis is still flying very well at VERY low RPM (tests done inside at night so my optical tach is not working due to the artificial light).

The Duration on 2000mAh Packs with about 10-20% Hovering IGE and 70-80% OGE and a bit of very slow forward flight was just under 14mins that's an average Amp draw of 8,5A at a guesstimated 10.5V thats 90W very nice low power figure for a 750g Heli.

i need to reduce my max pitch tho... during my 3rd pack tonight i tried a max pitch punch-out and the aft rotor (higher load due to aft C of G) skipped a couple of teeth on the spur gear and i lost blade phasing (!) made a terrible racked but managed to land with only a few scrapes and nicks on the blades that got hit in the trailing edge (pheeeeeewww)

but it seems that lower RPM are the way to go for duration

That concludes the Report so far

Cheers
MB
11-18-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
justJevvy
Heliman
Location: UK - Reading

that looks brilliant & thanks for the writeup.

I have considered converting my XFP to a 3 blade usin the MS kit ever since I saw a version at skyline.

Has anyone done the 3 blade conversion to a normal heli yet?

X3D, Twister & Duzi Swash
11-18-2005 Over year old.
 
 
mattijs
Senior Heliman
Location: Keerbergen Belgium

nice....good thing the blades didn't crush in flight when you lost phase
11-18-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gorn
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Australia

That is fantastic mate!!
Ive been looking at these for a while now, but the stock heads just didnt look right and put me off.
I had a look at the price of a Hirobo 50 size.............nearly fainted $2500!!! c'mon!
With the new heads, how does it handle in wind compared to the stock heads?
Cant wait to see a video

If you bling it, they will come :D
11-18-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Bell Bloke
Key Veteran
Location: England

I absolutely love this post!! Great pics, great spirit of adventure!! Here's mine on a supply mission, but I only had one 3 bladed head to contend with, not 2.
Great Post. Regards, Bell Bloke.

11-18-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

   
11-18-2005 Over year old.
 
 
meatbomber
Senior Heliman
Location: Klatovy, Czech Republic

Thanks for the kind words guys

With regards to wind...

It does handle wind better than the original head du to the extra rigidity in the rotor system IMO. But it still is a low wind to no wind modell.

A little video can be found HERE
(dunno if that'll work tho)

Cheers
MB

Ps: Great pics of that LAMA !!
11-19-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gorn
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Australia

Im just wondering what electronics you are running in that bird?
What does it come with in the basic package? Motor, gyro mixer?
The stock bird is pricey, just wondering to myself how much it will all cost.
Almost finished a very expensive micro, and swore I wouldnt do it again lol.

If you bling it, they will come :D
11-19-2005 Over year old.
 
 
meatbomber
Senior Heliman
Location: Klatovy, Czech Republic

The stock kit comes with the Motor only. (And the fuselage which is also worth 30-40$)

There is basically no choice of motor as the motor is integral of the drive train (the motor has a front and an aft shaft) But the EM400 (basically a big AXI) is quite up to the job.

then you'll need 6 Servos, a 6Channel RX and the Tandem Mixer and 1-2 gyros and a BEC.

For the Tandem Mixers you have a bit of choice:

The MS25 whih is the cheapest of all the units and works quite well and
the Tech-MP TH1 or the TH2.

The TH2 being an extremely flexible unit that even has a USB PC Interface that allows programming of approximately 20 parameters and it's also made to support Heading lock gyros.

Mine flies with the MS25 currently but i have a TH2 on the bench that's awaiting testing.

As for the Gyros... dunno you might just skip the yaw gyro on the tandem really but i would keep the nick gyro to smoothen out forward flight a bit.

Also you might want to order at MS directly... The Kit is 350€ here that's 412USD on their european online shop so even with tax and custom you should still be a LOT cheaper than the 650$ i've seen at the US retailers.

As for my Setup:

Stock Motor
MS-23 ESC
MS-25 Mixer
2 x PG03 Gyro (cheap.. but need frequent recalibration which is annoying)
MS-27 Receiver (NEVER had any glitching problem with these!)
6 x MS-15 Servos (HS55s) (need to take care, the frame is prepared for THESE servos and they can be installed directly, other servos might require modification of the frame.. but anyhow these are resonable cheap servos too)
1 x HS50 Servo for the cargo Hook (optional )

I fly with Kokam 3x1500, 3x2000 HD Cells for 9 and 13mins respectively.

AUW 750g
11-19-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MrCarbon
Heliman
Location: San Carlos, California

CH-46

Meat Bomber, You are da' Bomb ! very nice job. I only just received 2 3 blade head sets listing at $80.00 for 2 sets (3blades) ea. You will need the 3 blade heads which are only about $18.00, and of course swash plates. All we have are the expensive TE1000 which list at around $75 ea. We do not yet have any of the current MS packages you have but will order them for Christmas stock. We will also be promoting the CH-46 kits immediately but without servos or receivers.
Anyone interested should call or e-mail sales@mscomposit-usa.com

Keep Fyling dem Tandems !

Merry Christmas and GOD Bless us everyone !

MS USA
11-20-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
king kong
Senior Heliman
Location: los alamitos ca

will the 3bladed head fit on the dragonfly pro tandem?
11-30-2005 Over year old.
 
 
meatbomber
Senior Heliman
Location: Klatovy, Czech Republic

yes the 2 tandems share the same rotor heads.
11-30-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MrCarbon
Heliman
Location: San Carlos, California

3 Blade Head Conversions

Merry Christmas to all our Hornet Buddies.

We finally got in some of the 3 blade head conversion kits that you see in Meat Bomber's post. They are complete and very very nice ! Cost is $110.00 a set for each of the 3 blade head conversion kits and another $45.00 for the set of blades. We are doing a Christmas promotion for the 2 head kits and 2 sets of blades $299.99 ! Shipped to the lower 48 states. Outside the USA add another $20.00.

These kits are amazing and, as Meat Bomber attests, takes all the slop out of the heads and makes it far better to fly !

All GOD's richest Blessing to all our fellow fliers everywhere !

Merry Christmas to all,

Joe Ginski
MS Composit USA

12-14-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli_madken
Senior Heliman
Location: Liverpool, England

Hi Meatbomber,

I was so impressed by this thread and your video I decided that I had to have this heli, fancied one for a while so decided the kids could do without presents this year and bought myself one.

Just had its first flight tonight god I am so impressed, initially its difficult to get in the air and behaves in yaw differently, found myself having to concentrate on looking at the tail as I was tending to steer the front, wierd. Once in the air its phenomenal although I still have lots of fine tuning to do, first thing any setup tips would be appreciated.

What paint did you use, yours looks so realisitic. In the past I have used Tamiya PS paints but the range of colours wont suit this instance, what make and colour did you use.

Any help would be great, thanks for showing us your helicopter and inspiring me to have a go at this heli and a couple of other projects

Ken

PS the kids have got presents really!!
12-20-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
meatbomber
Senior Heliman
Location: Klatovy, Czech Republic

Hi, Ken!

Great to see another tandem driver and to hear you're happy with yours too

As for the setup.. (i'm in no way an expert but this is how i do it)
I try to make the mechanical setup as perfect as possible with the fuselage off i.e all Servo arms really perpendicular to the rotorshafts, swashes really perpendicular to the rotorshaft in front and side view, really 0° Pitch at center stick position (for setup) on both rotors.
And then i go from there... if the C of G is exactly between the 2 rotormasts the heli should lift of straight and shouldn't yaw.
if the heli yaws one or the other rotor is producing more lift than the other and thus torque is not equal... hence the yawing.
Once i'm satisfied i put the fuselage on and try again. My Heli is quite tail heavy with the fuselage due to the extra servo for the cargo hook and the lighting kit so i need to increas the tail rotor pitch so it lifts off straight and add some yaw to keep the nose where i want it to be. All this i try to get as perfect as possible with only mechanical adjustements... so you only need a click or 2 to fine tune on your transmitter. Reason being that i fly several VERY different akku packs and because of all the different weights and C/G locations i need the trims on the TX to adjust.

As for the yaw to behave differently... it feels more sluggish compared to my standard tail rotor configuration birds... but i still steer the nose like on all my helis.. check tha the front swash tilts where you move the stick and the aft swash to the opposit side then you should get correct "steer the nose" orientation of your controls.

I painted mine with Tamiya Acrylic Paint... because its watersoluble and i'm quite lazy when it comes to cleaing my airbrush
I used XF-66 Light grey and XF-20 Medium grey but i expected the base color to be lighter... i wanted the decals to be darker than the base color (that's how the original Heli is painted) and my base color turned out to be darker than the decals..
I can only suggest you put a coat of paint on some of the excess lexan that you cut off to see how the color turns out (shoud have done that myselfe)
I do like the Navy grey paint scheme but i guess for my next fuselage i go for something a bit more visible like the Columbia Helicopters colors (white red) as the grey makes the heli disapear quite quickly in the early twylight.. (guess that's the militarys point when they paint their birds ) but that's also my favorit time to fly because usually the winds are down to enjoyable levels.

Let's see some pics of your bird!

Cheers
MB
12-20-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli_madken
Senior Heliman
Location: Liverpool, England

Hi,

Thanks thats really helpful, not sure yet what colour scheme I want to use but I will have a look through the acrylic range.

I enjoyed making the kit it goes together really well, I spent a lot of time getting everything mechanically perfect but obviously I still need a bit more fine tuning as the nose tends to drift to the the right as I lift off. Big smile on my face tonight though as it is a truly amazing heli when in the air it just looks, sounds and handles so different to what I am used to, cant wait to get somewhere with a bit of space and try some forward flight.

I have uploaded some pics of my build but they will take a couple of hours to come through, I have documented everything and will continue to do so and put it all on my web site, the instructions for build are good but I would like to take it a stage further.

Searching around for other builds doesnt throw up much so we seem to be a small band of flyers for this particular heli, anyone else out there got any experience?

I love the mechanical aspects and the electronics of this heli it really intrigues me although it also freaks me out thinking about the intermesh of the two rotor discs, how often do they actually clash?

Take care, Ken
12-20-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
dgshaffer
Elite Veteran
Location: New Jersey

Add another one to the short list of tandem RC heli pilots. I'm building up a Hirobo Vertol. I should have the mechanics ready for a test flight in a couple of weeks. I've started the kit but had to stop as I'm waiting for my servos to arrive. There's on sandwiched in between the rear frame sections that's keeping me from going any further for now.

I'm really looking foreword to the challenge of learning how to handle this type of heli.
12-20-2005 Over year old.
 
 
heli_madken
Senior Heliman
Location: Liverpool, England

The Hirobo kit looks fantastic the frame and mechanicals look extremely good quality. I like that particular colour scheme you have gone for, what colour have you used for the orange sections?

hope your servos arrive soon as Christmas will delay everything (talk about heli_scrooge!)

Let us know how you get on with it

Ken
12-21-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
dgshaffer
Elite Veteran
Location: New Jersey

I opted for the USMC painyed fuse. This was the only one Jeff could locate under his desk

I'm going for a cargo hook, lighting kit, and working winch to finish off a little of the detailing. If I don't winp out I may go for a working rear ramp and side load ramp. Either way I might be forced to repaint it in time.

The mechanics are all metal. There must be hundreds of screws that hold all of the frame sections together. I've got the front mast housing and the main frame near complete and this thing could hold up my car. Really well engineered kit!

I like that MS kit of yours. It's one of the ones I was looking at that helped me to decide to go this route. Great job!

Don
12-21-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Pactra paints are good for Lexan. One of the LHSs here keeps a decent variety of colors in stock. Even a window tint that works good if you do it right. Or spray it on and let it set, then clean it off with alcohal and it will leave a nice smooth stain behind.
12-21-2005 Over year old.
 
 
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e-MS Composit Hornet > 3 Blade Conversion for the CH46 Seaknight (long post)
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