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A Main Hobbies . Boca Bearings . Modefo's RC Helicopters

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Audacity Models Pantera 50 - Tiger 50 > Head Slop
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

I gotta ask because I'm getting ready to fly this weekend.

Got my main blades off.

ON EDIT.... bearings look good. It looked like they were sloppy but that was not the case.

I'm going to dissasemble the head tonight and verify.

This heli only has about 10 minutes flight time.

Only CHANGE you'll get is what's left in your pocket.
11-04-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

I finished the dissasembly and reassembly.
Found the source of the slop.

The fit between the grip bearings and the spindle shaft is a little on the loose side. Maybe 0.001-0.002" clearance. Doesn't sound like much but it allows the bearings to tilt on the shaft a bit. This is not the main source of slop.

I found that the inside diameter of the dampers is quite a bit larger than the spindle outside diameter. About .010-.015" diametrical difference.

I verified the proper thrust bearing race order of assy, lubed the parts with synthetic grease and reassembled the head.

I do not have enough experience with other helis to judge if this type of play is designed in or too much but it seems like a lot. I understand centrifugal force does it's job of stiffening things up when in flight.

I guess the question is, is there supposed to be a snug fit between the damper hole and the spindle? Closing that gap would eliminate most of that slop.

Only CHANGE you'll get is what's left in your pocket.
11-05-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ, USA

In my Hawk Sport with stock black dampers and 5mm shaft it was a snug fit.

I installed shaved down 85-durometer Century dampers in the Tiger head with the stock 5mm shaft and it's a very tight fit. I use DuPont Krytox grease on all rubber and white lithium grease for the thrust bearings, Tri-flow in the radial bearings.

- Dan G. -
11-05-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jbeech
rrAdvertiser
Location: Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

The loose fit in the stock dampers is a designed fit, don't worry about it, it works fine. Also, be careful with shaving dampers of another brand - there's a thread about bending spindles here on RR from back in March dealing with this . . . which turned out to be ENTIRELY due to the fellow shaving dampers engineered for another machine and fitting them to his Tiger 50.

Folks, we experimented with all kinds of things here and worked quite hard to develop urethane dampers specifically engineered for the Tiger. Trust me when I tell you there's waaaay more to this than you might suppose. By the way, the durometer rating of the urethane dampers is nominally 80, but in fact it's 82. Frankly, it would have been far cheaper for us to have gone with either 80 or 85 but the specific formulation of our urethane dampers is not so hard the helicopter nods at some head speeds in a hover, but still hard enough that the tail won't get sliced off in a tick-tock (unless performed by a pilot with poor collective management skills who lets his head speed decay precipitously in which case it doesn't matter if it's a top line XCell because you're gonna whack the boom anyway).

As a result of my insisting on engineering the best hardness for the Tiger 50, then because this particular urethane formulation is poisonous before it cures it must be manufactured in a special faciltiy with vaccuum hoods and hence, the dampers are a little pricey. The flip side is they seem to last forever. Folks, I made an executive decision to manufacture the proper damper hardness instead of going for somehting which wouldn't be quite as good despite it being a cheaper material.

I made the decision knowing quite well that some folks would feel we were ripping them off . . . but the fact is I've made more difficult decisions and this was something of a no brainer for me. Frankly, our 3D dampers are just about perfect and I feel well worth the effort to develop them - despite my also knowing I could have gone cheap by using a a standard urethane mix (and saved a lot of money).

Folks, only God is perfect, of course - but I really do try to deliver the best product for the majority (at an affordable price), while in turn offering the best optional bits for anyone who wants to customize some aspect of their experience to better suit their style. Naturally, I could also have opted to instead put urethane dampers as standard in the Tiiger 50 and made the standard damper the option. Somebody has to make a decision, and I'm the guy - and I decided that wouldn't serve the majority. As in all helicopters, there are trade offs, but I really think ours is the best compromise available - particularly for 300 bucks!

My 2¢


John Beech - GM (and janitor)
Audacity Models
11-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ, USA

John,

This sorta stuff is what everyone else, as in other manufacturers don't tell you. I really appreciate you explaining this stuff.

No more damper shaving for me. As soon as I can afford I'll pick up a set of your 3D dampers.

- Dan G. -
11-05-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

Flew today. Everything went well. Some blade tracking issues but ever so slight.

John my only real question is why there isn't at minimun a slip fit between the spindle and the damper ID. There must be .015-.020" difference in ID of the damper to the OD of the spindle.

Is this designed in on purpose?

I'm not questioning durometer specs. I'm questioning the sloppy fit.

I too admire your responses to these questions. It's great to have first hand answers. I'm not out to pick this thing apart. It was just blantantly loose in there.

If you want I can take macro closeup shots and take precise measurements.



Only CHANGE you'll get is what's left in your pocket.
11-06-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jbeech
rrAdvertiser
Location: Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

Hootowl,

Addressing the tracking issue first, please check that there is not excessive slop in the seesaw arms. In a handful of reported instances, we've found one of the pivots where the arms rides may occasionally be a few thousandths too long and hence, the bolt tightens down on the pivot before snugging to the inner race of the bearings. This results in a slight amount of play in one of the arms (which can lead to trouble you've described). Fortunately, just filing a scosh off the pivot tightens things up nicely and it's easy to do. This is explained in quite some detail in the addendum. For anybody who doesn't have the current addendum, it's on the website. Folks, please remember, I wrote the manual a year ago last March . . . the whole purpose of the addendum is to share with you what I would have written then had I known what I know now. Treat it as a continuation of the manual, OK?

Next, you don't like the fit between the dampers and the spindle? Please let me ask you something, do you like the way the Tiger 50 flies? While you may certainly feel free to experiment with the designed fit if you wish (yes, it's designed this way on purpose), I beg you to please realize you're messing with something designed and manufactured with the express purpose of providing a satisfying flight experience for pretty much anybody who likes to fly a model helicopter (or wishes to join the fraternity - sorority for our sisters in flight of whom there are actually a few flying Tigers).

Unfortunately, I am more concerned that by second guessing the engineers here on a public forum you possibly raise the specter of causing concerns in the minds of less experienced modelers (and prospective customers) and this, naturally enough, concerns me.

Hootowl, I guess I'm just being an old hen about this, but I'm wondering why you're doing this in a public forum instead of just coming to me privately and asking about the fit? All the while I'm rememebring you made another post earlier about a problem with the Tiger 50 where you complained about the design of the tail pitch slider (the inference to be drawn was it was poor) and how you resorted to forcing the tail pitch plate down over the threads of the tail slide ring sleeve (complete with photos no less). Later, you edited your post once it became clear that the problem was you simply had not realized you were dealing with a left-hand thread. However, that post remains on RunRyder to this day and while I appreciate your editing what you said, I've already had an e-mail from a fellow asking me what's wrong with the design of our tail pitch plate!

I mention this because issues you raise may have repercussions far beyond what you innocently envision when you ask your question . . . and I know you well enough to recognize you mean no harm, so don't get mad at me for bringing this up, please! Now let's address the second (but primary) part of your response, the fit of the dampers and spindle shaft.


Furthermore, please don't misunderstand what follows, it's your helicopter . . . so of course, feel free to experiment. For example, if you don't like the fit, maybe you can try slipping some heat shrink tubing over the shaft . . . .and see if you prefer it that way. But believe me, the fit is designed for a purpose, it's no accident. Why do you think the Tiger 50 is such a gentle and forgiving helicopter in the first place? It's because of how the design is optimized for smooth predictable flight!

However, let's say you want a more aggressive feel for harder 3D maneuvers? Then easy as pie, you can fine tune your Tiger to better suit your style of flight just by adding the urethane 3D dampers - part number PDR0071 - and have at it. This of course presupposes you don't find you kind of like how snugging up the head with some heat shrink feels after you fly it.

Folks, all I'm asking here is for you to realize the pebble tossed into the calm pond can have make waves, i.e create repercussions beyond what was envisioned. Just as I'm sure Hootowl never thought his post about the pitch plate would lead to people questioning the design, so I ask that if you have a question, please ask me first. Naturally, if you're not satisfied, then of course, feel free to ask the general community because I'm not trying to censor anybody . . . I'm just asking you to consider the implications of some of your actions and the unintended consequences which may result.


John Beech - GM (and janitor)
Audacity Models
11-06-2005 Over year old.
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

Well John, I thank you for your complete answers.

Yes I made a HUGE mistake with the pitch plate post. I fixed it immediatley because I was just as concerned as you. I simply made it clear as a bell without making BS about the mistake I made.

On one post I screw up because I didn't ask questions first... and now I'm asking questions and I get hammered.

I look at it this way.... you got a good heli, it will sell itself. I have questions... I ask them. Are the head questions legitimate? Yes. Should they be private? NO. Legitamate questions are good to air out in the public forum. It does us all good. I had one person PM me about the head because he/she was concerned about you getting upset. Guess they were justified.

You could have answered my question about the spindle/damper gap in one sentence.... yes it was designed that way and it works well.

Regarding the pitch plate screw up on my part... There are no notes or instructions on how to replace it. I figured it would be a piece of cake and didn't think it would be a problem. I screwed it up and posted my screw up. Don't make it out now like I'm hiding it. I edited it so no one would read it and make the same mistake. In the end it's a very useful topic. I wish it was there for me to read as it stands, when I replaced the pitch plate to begin with GET THE PICTURE?

John you're a nice guy but one thing you gotta face is criticism. This heli is no different than anthing else. Some will like it some won't. Questions will be asked, doubts and praises will be expressed.

If it all gets done behind the scenes, we all lose out.

I love forums.

Maybe we should all dance around cheering how great and perfect the Tiger50 iswhile airing our concerns behind the scenes.

Meanwhile I just placed an order for $120 more parts for it from Ricks. These are parts most commonly replaced after a crash. I want them on hand because I plan on keeping this piece.

By the way, the tail is a bit fragile. Everytime I wack the ground with it parts break. Do all helis do this?

I previously had an X-Cell gasser. Let me tell you something it was one beautiful heli. That was my first fuel powered R/C helicopter. I sold it because it cost too much to fix after a crash. Why am I telling you this? Because as great a reputation the X-Cell has... I thought it was a poorly designed heli. The gear drive on it was so sensitive to hard landings. I chewed up main gears just from landing hard. Not the bevel tail gear but the main gear. I did have the front transmission upgrade kit installed. After talking to people many came back and said it's a piss poor design. But don't tell the X-Cell gasser owners that. The bearing block design that holds the clutch bell is weak. Also the entire upper frame assy is a bit flimsy. Part of the problem is the torque of the gasoline motor.

These (R/C helis) are tough machines to design light, cheap and durable. You would know. It's your life. I just want to understand them enough to fix and fly them. Maybe you should be a little more like the Raptor team and post a little lighter... just keep upgrading the problem areas. Before you know it the price will have to go up. HMMMM


And finally,

I don't appreciate being personally slammed just before you give the answer to the question. I don't personally slam you.

Only CHANGE you'll get is what's left in your pocket.
11-06-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
dbcaster
Senior Heliman
Location: Petaluma, Ca

Hootowl,
You can post questions on the Tiger forum but only if they also say how great the heli is. If you make a mistake you will be corrected either by another post or a pm. I feel that if a heli is good enough it will sell itself. To me pointing out problems with another brand instead of only focusing on your own good points is bad business. If the Tiger was perfect you would not need to show me all the problems with the Raptor.
11-06-2005 Over year old.
 
 
bsc
Heliman
Location: Villa Park, IL

Hootowl,

I for one am sure glad you posted the pitch plate occurence as I broke mine today and due to previously reading your post I knew ahead of time that it was threaded for one and reverse threaded at that. I'm pretty confident that I would have broke the new one as well if it wasn't for reading that post. Actually, this forum is where I get a great deal of my tiger info as the manual doesn't go into great detail on stuff like that (if it did, it would be the size of an encyclopedia! ) and the people that I fly with aren't experienced with this heli, and this is my first helicopter. I would like to second your suggestion that there be notes included with the parts to describe how to install them. When I bought my lsd, I would not have had any idea how to install it if it weren't again for reading a post in here where somebody described exactly how he did it.

BTW, I've ran into many of the same situations that you have, so you're not the only one. My head was extremely sloppy until I filed down the spacers as John described. I actually figured that one out on my own, but it took a while. I was also confused by the dampners as my head suddenly got extremely sloppy, and after seeing that huge gap between the dampners and the spindle, the expert who helps me and I assumed that my dampners had went bad. It turned out that the nuts on the spindle had came loose (my fault) and it wasn't the dampners at all, but the big gap threw us off. I think most of that is because the guy who helps me is used to raptors where they are tighter. I had no clue what they were supposed to look like!

Anyway, I just want to say that I appreciate people posting their experiences on here, good or bad, and I definitely appreciate your detailed descriptions, John. For those of us who aren't experienced with helis, every little bit of info helps!
11-06-2005 Over year old.
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

bsc you are quite welcome.

If we ain't makin mistakes, we ain't doin nothin

Only CHANGE you'll get is what's left in your pocket.
11-06-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jbeech
rrAdvertiser
Location: Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

Hootowl is 100% right, I'm sorry . . . mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Frankly, I woke on the wrong side of the bed today. Yes, I know that not a decent excuse, but it's an explanation for my rude reply, and all Tiger owners deserve better. Anyway, there's no excuse and I apologize to one and all . . . profusely, but most especially to my friend Hootowl. I am sorry pal.


John Beech - GM (and janitor)
Audacity Models
11-06-2005 Over year old.
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

Apology accepted John. Lets move on.
I will be much more careful in the future.

I too apologize for not being more descriminative in my postings.

Please don't back off with the detailed explanations. They are the best!

Only CHANGE you'll get is what's left in your pocket.
11-06-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
B.Hofferth
Senior Heliman
Location: walkerton in.

hootowl, thanks for the post. i can personally vouch for the urethane dampners they do fly great and fit tight with the stock spindle or the venture 3d spindle. i have various brands of blades on hand and have tried to date, nhp razors, tt carbons, and now are trying my v blades. all blades have much inspired and consistant tracking in hard manuvers. if you fly hard u will like the urethanes. brian..
11-06-2005 Over year old.
 
 
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Audacity Models Pantera 50 - Tiger 50 > Head Slop
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