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Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies

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Radio - JR & Spektrum DSM > Re: 2.4GHz spread spectrum DX6
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: Town of California in the state of Maryland

Not sure why http://runryder.com/helicopter/t209821p1/ was closed!?!?

But here is the continuation of that thread...

Ok, with 100 mW EIRP and a receiver sensitivity of 105 dBm (a number I'm finding on numerous 2.4 GHz SS receivers), I get a possible range of 17.5 km.

At 100 mW EIRP and 1 km range, the link budget margin is 25 dB. Not bad. The remaining issue to combat is shadowing and multi-path caused by the aircraft itself. JR's DuaLink should help with that tremendously.

Bottom line is that there shouldn't be anything stopping JR or any other company from delivering a system with plenty of range for our larger helis and planes.

- John

Protos -- Logo 14 -- Logo 10
10-26-2005 Over year old.
 
 
chuckhager
Key Veteran
Location: Clovis, CA

I was wondering why it was closed as well. This is an interesting topic with ground breaking information.
10-26-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
HUTCH964
Key Veteran
Location: Taylor,Texas USA ****** <;))))))><******

Mark Closed it !

Seems a Horizon Rep. has posted too much and it was closed!

SORRY GUY'S

John Thanks for Keeping the thread going but it too could be CLOSED.

*****

Tim
10-27-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
chuckhager
Key Veteran
Location: Clovis, CA

I fully understand the policies & rules for this forum,
and understand that Mark can do what he wants,
and his income is made from this forum,
and we can take it or leave it.

I respect that. And I respect Mark and want to say thank you for creating this forum for us to congregate together so we can discuss helis.

But, I didn't see anything in the Horizon rep's post that could be construed as "sales marketing." What I read was informative information being passed on to us that stuck to the subject matter at hand.

JKos, sorry for getting off topic. Now, back to discussing spread spectrum.
10-27-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
drdot
Elite Veteran
Location: So. California, Orange County.

My two cents..

No offense to Mark, but this is HUGE!!...Greatest news for model aviation since the escapement...Any and all discusssion should be welcome at this point....Horizon should be posting about it since they are the first.
Once again, Hats off to Paul Beard!

John.
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
nap_tan
Senior Heliman
Location: Santa Clara CA, USA

Maybe because it makes my 14MZ obsolete technology?
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
HUTCH964
Key Veteran
Location: Taylor,Texas USA ****** <;))))))><******

I have a local buddy that will have one soon,as it is on order for his T~Rex..
I wounder if the servos that come with the DX6 TX,RX will work on the T~Rex ?
JKos "John" do you have that info???

I would love to use the servos on my soon to be T~Rex that come the DX6 combo....


*****

Tim
10-27-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: Town of California in the state of Maryland

Tim,
> JKos "John" do you have that info???

No, I haven't checked the servo's specs against what a TRex needs. Here are the specs as posted by Horizon.

S75 Servos
Size: (L x W x H): 23mm x 12mm x 24mm (.90" x .45" x .94")
Weight: 7.5 grams (0.28 oz)
Torque: 17.2 oz/in (1.17 kg cm) @ 4.8V
Operating Speed: .12 sec/60° @ 4.8V


- John

Protos -- Logo 14 -- Logo 10
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
nivlek
Elite Veteran
Location: Norfolk England

I really hope that this gets approved for use in the UK soon .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
nivlek
Elite Veteran
Location: Norfolk England

According to this thead , we can't use it for flying models .

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...?highlight=bmfa

It's going to be legal for cars from early November (6th?) , so hopefully it will get approved for flying models .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Ron_Osinski
Senior Heliman
Location: Russellton, PA

Yes the servos that come with the DX6 work in the T-rex. I have them in my 2 T-Rex 450 XL's. The servos are very close in performance to the E-Flite HS75's. I have used those servos without issue in my T-Rex's as well.

Hope you guys enjoy the radio and the techology! It really works super.

You may PM me if I can help more with info or e-mail me.

___________
Best Regards,

Ron Osinski
aka - GMRO
10-27-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

This technology sounds great - but I have some concerns which I would need to be certain about before I would fly it on a heli.

Ron - maybe you can shed light:

My 200mW video downlink works pretty good to about 1,000 feet when the antenna are parallel to each other.

However, if they are end-on then it might start to break up at 10 feet.

Also, if someone walks between the heli and the Rx, it loses the signal completely

How does this system avoid the signal dropouts like this ?.

John C.
10-27-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
HUTCH964
Key Veteran
Location: Taylor,Texas USA ****** <;))))))><******

That is what I was looking for is an answer to the T~Rex a system I can buy and use ALL of the Equipment bought in the package deal...

Thanks Ron

Tim
10-27-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Four Stroker
Veteran
Location: Atlanta

JKos

Your 105dBm sensitivity is a bit optimistic. Try a 10 dB SNR. Also a 25 dB link margin is optimistic. Phill Kraft worked with a link margin due to antenna orientation only of 40 dB - long, long, ago. This was in a plane without blocking and multipath. See what you get with a little reality thrown in.

I am looking forward to the DSS systems. I think this is the best thing since we got 72 MHz ( in the USA ). CB guys used to tune between channels and shoot us down just for fun.

Hey, I used to fly with a Citizenship SE 2 escapement!
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: Town of California in the state of Maryland

Four Stroker,
I agree, there are pieces missing and a big part of that is simply not having all the information we really need. There are several aspects of system design which could make or brake any numbers we can come up with.

> Your 105dBm sensitivity is a bit optimistic.

Unless numerous companies are lying, this is a very common number you will find for 2.4 GHz systems currently available. Some are even better. I've worked with some 2.4 GHz systems which are more like 112 dBm.

> Try a 10 dB SNR.

The 5 dB comes from communication theory for BPSK and QPSK modulation.

In the end, we'll get what we get despite any numbers we can throw around.

- John

Protos -- Logo 14 -- Logo 10
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: Town of California in the state of Maryland

> How does this system avoid the signal dropouts like this ?.

John C.,
Keep in mind there is a big difference between how your video system is modulated and transmitted versus the spread spectrum systems we are speaking of for these control systems.

As to people walking between the heli and the rx, I would hope there is no one walking between you holding a tx and an operating heli. But, I suppose it happens.

- John

Protos -- Logo 14 -- Logo 10
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Ron_Osinski
Senior Heliman
Location: Russellton, PA

I too have 2.4 gig video down link systems but the Spektrum is not the same.

The DX6 receiver has 2 antennas that operate as a "dual-link". Each antenna is only 3.5" long. They are about the same thickness as the small thin antennas that we see on small receivers for park flyers that have been so popular in the past. Basically the transmissions are being done on 2 of the 80 available channels at the same time. SO the receiver is getting 2 singals. No matter what the receivers orientation is to the transmitter it gets a link and there by receives information. The link is very strong. This is a general description on how it works. I admit openly that I'm not an telemetry genius.

There is a range test procedure that you do which is outlined in the instructions that accompany the DX6 Spektrum system. it is very easy to do. It if works on the ground with the range test it will work in the air.

I've not had any range issues or drop outs with the DX6 and other test units that use the Spektrum technology while I've been flying/testing this product.

I have had video drop outs though with my video stuff...its just not the same thing.

Also for inquiring minds you may wish to check this out...

http://www.modelaircraft.org/spreadspec.asp

___________
Best Regards,

Ron Osinski
aka - GMRO
10-27-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

Quote 
I have been flying the DX6 recently, since I-Hobby this past week/end in LA, and have been flying the pre-production models of this NEW system for a while now during it's testing. Let me just say IT ROCKS!

I have this system in my 2 T-Rex 450XL's and 2 E-Flite BCP's. One is brushless w/seperates and the other has a "HACKED" 4in1 that I only swapped out the receiver w/ the DX6 receiver to fly with a brushed motor. All 4 models fly extremely well without any problems. No range issues what so ever and never a glitch. The helis feel very smooth in the air. I felt a locked in feeling once I began flying this system in these helis. The performance/control was improved IMO over the FM and SPCM systems I had in these helis prior to fitting the up with the Spektrum receivers.

I also helped Danny S. get his 2 T-Rex's set up this past weekend at the WMHC event during the I-Hobby show in LA. Horizon Hobby donated a complete DX6 system to him with a spare receiver for his 2nd Rex. He was having problems with bad glitches with the equipment he was flying in his Rex's. They hooked him up and he took 2nd place during the event. Spektrum systems do not get hit by bad bearings, ESC hits or anything for that matter. His helis were locked right in once we put the DX6 in it.

I really like the DX6 and will not fly any other type of modulation in my smaller e-helis/e-planks any more. I can't wait till modules for my existing transmitters or complete Spektrum radio systems are available so I can fly larger e-helis and IC helis on this new technology.


As a point of information so that no one thinks that the ATX equipment that Danny was using might be having a problem I think it is fair to point out that the RX that Danny was flying in his Rex was an Align unit and not ATX equipment.

On Monday Danny ordered ATX RX's to go in his TRex per Brian @ ATX. It is my understanding that there are still latency issues with the SS equipment. I would sure like to hear Danny's comments on this issue.

TM
10-27-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Gary Hoorn
Key Veteran
Location: Annapolis Maryland USA

Quote 
On Monday Danny ordered ATX RX's to go in his TRex per Brian @ ATX

Why am I not surprised at this move. Wonder who provides the radios for the Szabo's
Gary
11-06-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Ron_Osinski
Senior Heliman
Location: Russellton, PA

Hey guys,

It's all good! I'm not surprised that Danny got replacement equipment. Nothing wrong with that. I never meant to imply that he would be changing brands.

Bottom line is he was having difficulty and Horizon stepped up and helped him out. I was there and nobody else offered him replacement equipment or offered to OVERNITE ship him replacement equipment.

Let's not forget it's a hobby for most of us. At least it still is for me! It does me good to see folks trying to help each other out so they may continue having fun and even compete for a prize at times.

And we used /flew the DX6 this past weekend during the 3rd Annual Indoor JR E-Festival in Columbus, Ohio. Again the Spektrum DX6 provided solid performance inside the kevlar DOME that we all flew in. It was very nice to not have to get a frequency PIN to fly. I flew all my e-helis there and had a lot of fun explaining more about how the Spektrum works. It will only get better from this point on.

___________
Best Regards,

Ron Osinski
aka - GMRO
11-08-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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Radio - JR & Spektrum DSM > Re: 2.4GHz spread spectrum DX6
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