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Thunder Power RC . Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC

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e-E-Flite Blade CP mCX CX 400-3D > EDP 50 w/GWS DD fin - everything is backwards
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

Some observations about the GWS EDP-50 motor:

If you wire the EDP-50 according to the end bell polarity markings, it will rotate clockwise - which is not proper for direct drive.

So to use it in a direct drive application - you must wire the motor backwards - which may mean the motor is not timed properly - unless it is neutral timed. I will do some tests to find that out.

Next - I got the GWS fin tonight for the EDP-50 motor. The way the motor mounts in this fin set, the output shaft is pointing to the left side of the heli instead of the right side!

This means the tail rotor is now a tractor instead of a pusher. It also means the tail rotor is turning down and away from the main rotor wash, instead of up and into it as before. This will make the tail rotor less effective than it otherwise would be.

To get the tail rotor to the right side of the heli, I could mount the tail motor on the wrong side of the GWS fin - but it would not be as sturdy nor look proper. Or I could turn the GWS fin upside down - that would really look bad ! Or I could modify the stock tail rotor housing to accept the EDP-50 motor - it looks like a 10 second job.

In any of those scenarios, while the DD motor would now be wired with proper polarity - and it would now be working in pusher fashion, the prop would be turning backwards - i.e. trailing edge first - since it is not a pusher prop - this is certainly not efficient either - and it would still be turning down and away from the main rotor wash... (edit: these small little props can turn backwards without much loss of efficiency - probably don't want to try it with larger airfoil props though.)

So it looks like I will wire the motor backwards and use the GWS fin set in tractor mode with the prop turning the correct direction.

PS - the complete EDP-50 setup with prop and tail fin, is only 5.0 (21.3 vs 16.3) grams heavier than a stock motor & housing with bearings, gear, shaft & prop. This excludes the weight of any heat sinks.

Any comments or comparisons to other DD setups?

Thanks!
09-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Rogersresort
Veteran
Location: Algonac MI

Yes you are correct. If you solder the wires correctly and use the suggested tail fin, the heli will spin like a top, I found out the hard way and broke a prop. I decided to reverse the connection at the or 4-in-1. It seems to work fine and the tail motors are lasting. Now on my GWS Dragonfly, I use the stock tail motor mount so the prop would be on the right side,I used a tie wrap to help support the motor. This set up works great and tail control is right there.

Arnie
09-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
t.edwards
Senior Heliman
Location: Lake Geneva, Wisconsin

I think that maybe one of the best ways to get the edp50h motor (actually a CN12-RXC) is to buy the edf40h (ducted fan assy for <$12.00) throw away the fan blade and housing (too fragile and no known glue will stick to it) which leaves you with a pre wired motor that will plug into a JST/BEC male connector,.has a heat sink on it and correct polarity for a left side prop. Motor spins ccw in the ducted fan setup. Just a thought. Tom
09-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

Here is a pic of the final configuration. I cut off the threaded potion of the metal prop shaft adapter. That, and all the washers & the nut are not required.

CLICK FOR LARGER


09-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
lavarocks
Senior Heliman
Location: Rochester, NY

So how does it fly with that setup?

Is the drop in efficiency noticed in flight?
How about the fact that it pushes down and away from the rotor disc?

How warm does it get?
09-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

I am waiting on some servo mounts to fly it in the Esky CP2 frame.

I expect no problems in any area of concern you mentioned - as possibly hundreds of people are already using this exact setup in these types of helis and have been for awhile. The prop turning into or away from the main rotor wash probably will have no effect - considering this setup should have power to spare. It won't need the extra help.

The problems people run into using this stem from:

- Selecting the wrong IPS motor
- Selecting the wrong prop
- Installing the prop incorrectly
- Installing the prop shaft adapter too close to the can - such that it drags on the can when the armature deflects (in pusher applications)

Response by people who fly way better than me - has been described as 'stunning'. Rolling backwards circuits are no problem - if you can fly 'em :-)

I have seen videos of the tail flying insane 3D - you can see video of it running in a hummbird with GY401 HH gyro here:


Direct Drive Tail = 3D !! (MPG VIDEO)


I will post my results in a few days.
09-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
lavarocks
Senior Heliman
Location: Rochester, NY

Well, I doubt it'll do rolling backwards circles with the gyro in the 3-1, but hey it's worth a try!
09-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

Hey - go old school :-) You are right - trying to do 3D makes my brain melt with this rate gyro...
09-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
midwestpilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Crystal Lake, IL

hows the mod holding up...

workin' good.

Burning out any motors...

Are you using the stock 4 in 1 and can it handle direct drive?

In life there is no spacebar!

Rich Erikson AMA 6175
09-14-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

Not flown yet after the DD tail mod - I am still waiting on my Esky servo mounts, should be here today or tomorow..
09-14-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Ron_Osinski
Senior Heliman
Location: Russellton, PA

Pics are nice. Very neat mod.

So by using the GWS prop for DD you are saying you need to put the motor on the other side of the mount on the boom? Why not just put the prop on backwards/flipped on the motor shaft? Meaning instead of having the numbers on the prop facing outwards away from the can...flip the prop and put the numbers on the prop towards the can? The motor would still be running in the timing range designed and now the prop is spinning as it should.

Am I missing something? I've had a BCP with DD step up while testing t/r systems. I had motors that mounted like the stock motors were mounted meaning the stock side of the mount and I did not have to reverse wires. I just pushed the prop onto the shaft as mentioned above. The wires are different vs. the gear reduction system that is stock. But I flipped the plug up front in the 4in1 as someone already said above. ALSO I found the holding was the same when using the stock motor from the BCP and gear reduction over the DD set up. And the DD set up ran much hotter in temp than the gear reduction system did. I had a few DD set ups fail after 12 flights or so during testing. IMO the motors over heated. Note none were brushless types...just the std brushed type everyone seems to migrate to.

___________
Best Regards,

Ron Osinski
aka - GMRO
09-14-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
stealth916
Veteran
Location: Rocklin, CA

Ron - thanks for the interest in this. I can't take credit of course - it has been done a lot, for at least a year on hummingbirds.

If you read my original post - you can see I discuss ramifications of all mount options.

In the case of your scenario - the motor would be running with normal timing, yes, but the prop would be running BACKWARDS - ie trailing edge first, because it is not a pusher prop. This motor is timed for clockwise rotation, but 99% of the props out there are cut for CCW.

So you choose your poison: Either a motor timed backwards, or a prop running backwards. In my experience, a motor running with reverse timing is not near as bad as a prop running backwards. In fact, I have done a lot of bench testing with motors running 'proper' timed and 'reverse' timed, and it seems that running a typical motor timed for direct drive, with reverse polarity, gives more torque and less heat than running it properly - it draws less amps. You may not get that last 300 RPM - but sometimes it's not what you need.

My testing was done with Speed 400 motors over the years, but it probably is a similar effect with these small motors.


With that said - taking a closer look at this prop, there really isn't an airfoil. It does have swept tips - but big deal. So perhaps in this case, with this particular prop - running it backwards would not produce a huge efficiency loss.

What I will do is modify a stock tail case to accept this motor, then I will try flying both scenarios. If I'm feeling patient - I may even bust out the Whattmeter and tach, and do bench testing on both setups.
09-14-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Ron_Osinski
Senior Heliman
Location: Russellton, PA

Got ya! Makes sense to me.

My props were 20/20's with flat tips. The 30/20's have the tips. I tried them and didn't really like how those felt in flight and sounded in the air. I should have said that. I think we are both on the same page.

I flew HB's too early on and saw some of the same things you did.

Good to know there is an alternate way to make these things hold good. I also played with the stock t/r blades and cut them down for a DD set up. It worked pretty good too but it was a chore to fabricate.

Thanks!

__________
Best Regards,

Ron Osinski
aka - GMRO
09-14-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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e-E-Flite Blade CP mCX CX 400-3D > EDP 50 w/GWS DD fin - everything is backwards
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