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Esprit Model . Thunder Power RC . Real Raptors

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C basic settings
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Whew

As you all have noted, I am NOT taking a cheap shot at 3D flyers as I have the greatest respect for what they do and it seems like everyone here pretty much agrees that changing to a 3D format for F3C is not the solution. Please note that I said the XFC seems to be the exception rather than the rule for competition. 3D is neither easy, nor undisciplined, but at the same time, if the model survives a mistake, it is entirely possible that noone will know it was a mistake, so accuracy is kind of a fuzzy subject.
SO the question would seem to be, how do we increase participation in the AMA and F3C classes. To be honest, I have a GREAT time at contest. I have practiced and worked hard to get ready but for me the practice was FUN though sometimes you wouldn't know it if you listened in on my comments while hovering in the wind . If you look at my face during a contest flight, you would see me concentrating on doing the every best I can but when the flight is over, I am relaxed and smiling, even if it was not the greatest flight I have ever done. The particular group of guys that come together to compete are some of the greatest guys in the sport, and the most knowlegible. I had a "problem" the other day and made two calls to friends that just happen to be world class flyers and got two different things I could try to help me get through. It's really nice to have someone to call or email to get help when you are really in the dark.
I get to have dinner with Cliff, Wayne,Dr. Ben, et al, at a contest and sit and listen to their discussions and am AMAZED at what they pass back and forth as common knowlege that I never heard of before. Most of the things I have passed on here came from those kinds of discussions done over dinner or over a drink later. I have always found these guys to be straight forward and forthcoming with answers to any questions I might have. I have NEVER heard an F3C guy refuse to tell someone how they set up something or how they fix something. Curtis is among the very best as he will sit and explain everything he does and the reasons he does it that way (and he always HAS a good reason) but even if he flew my model or let me fly his, he'd still beat the snot out of me. Yes, he's that good, as are Cliff, Wayne, Dwight, Len, and a few more.
My models fly better right now that any models I have ever had before, way better. Unfortunately, at my advanced age, with my aged vision and tortoise-like reflexes, I cannot use the advantage of the models like I could have 25 years ago. What is the old adage, to soon old, too late smart......
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
06-01-2005 Over year old.
 
 
nighttrain
Senior Heliman
Location: Louisville KY

Great thred! Thx GM1!
Hirobo KC. #1. question: The strut shims are to level the lndg gear while Flying. Because the t/r torque, our helo's hover about 5 degrees right wing down. Every lndg is right skid / left. Every takeoff is left skid/right. Great in theory and a few champions have used them. I have some sets, but I'm so used to hovering looking at the skids, the slanted skids ..... take some getting used to. In strong crosswinds, the landing can look pretty awkward. Anyhow, for Hirobo, don't forget to buy 4. Got some if ya want to try em. Doug
06-01-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Hmmm........

The landing gear shims that are for sale do work. I don't use them because I have gotten used to touching right aileron just as the model lifts off so it's easy for me to do that. If I had trouble with a straight liftoff, I certainly would try them.
My model has separate trims for each flight condition so for condiitions where I have high speed forward flight, I have in a little aileron trim so the model flies straight and level. There is a problem here, trim like this is speed dependent so if your model doesn't fly at the same speed all the time, the trim changes just a fuzz. Most F3C models are adjusted to fly at about the same speed all the time and it's pretty easy to hold trim as, even if you are off a little, it's so small that you can easily correct for it and noone knows.
I need help for any info on a JR radio as I do not own one, nor have I really done much work with them.
MASTER BLADES
When doing set up on any model, you should designate a master blade and mark it. I usually use the heavier blade of the set. You do all your pitch measurements using that one blade and you then go out and hover and track the slave blade to the master. By tracking the slave to the master, you do not change the set up of the model that you so carefully put in with your pitch gauge and you always know where you are.
Also, very few pitch gauges are completely accurate but it really doesn't matter as long as you use the same pitch gauge every time so you are always getting the same readings. I use the same MA pitch gauge I bought in 1990 and it still works the same way it did then.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
06-01-2005 Over year old.
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

GM1

While your on the subject of pitch gauges, I have a Robbe pitch gauge, this has a seperate adjuster that has degrees on it & apparently it is for use when setting up semi sym blades.

Do you know how this works.

BTW I have reset my Cuatro & SE using your setting info as a guide & both fly better than before & in the hover I'm using AFR & Expo where as before I had been using servo delay, much better. Thanks.

Also I think that 3D & F3C should be seperate comps & not combined.

Although I have been practising hovering for a while, last weekend I put cones out to give me points to aim at, that sure cocked things up, man it's so difficult to move the heli around & stop over a cone & hover, def need more cone practise, it's like there is some kind of force field pushing you away from the cones.




Tony
06-01-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Pitch gauge

I used to have a Schluter pitch gauge with the extra slider you described. I really do not know what the extra slider is for but I always assumed it was added later since my pitch gauge only went to +/-10. I also wondered if it could be used for measuring cyclic throws while having the main gauge at 0 degrees. It should work but I never tried it.
One of the most intimidating things I have ever done is to practice hovering just out on the field and feel really good about how good you are doing and then set out the cones and realize how bad you suck . I have a practice box at our club field and practice on the box nearly all the time when hovering. It gives you a good feel for where the model has to be to be over the cones when you are practicing. You get used to how the model looks when over the cone and over the central helipad and it's easier to do it under pressure
I think Curtis has a reverse force field device that centers the model over the cone.when the force field is on. I can't seem to find where he bought it so I can also get one. I bet his dad developed it just for them. (Curtis and Dave, I am just kidding.)
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
06-02-2005 Over year old.
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

I guess I just need to keep practising above the cones, it is amazing just how much they affect what you want to do.

I have another question on rolls, I can just about do 1 decent roll, normally end up losing too much speed tho, how to do 2 consecutive rolls beats me.

What's the procedure for rolls, do you use a tx mix to keep speed up or use back elevator on entry & at the inverted point.



Tony
06-02-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Rolls

Boy I wish I had a good answer for this. I used to have a real problem rolling my Pro IIs with semi-symmetrical blades, particularly if I rolled to the right. As I rolled inverted on the first roll, the nose of the model would shoot up and kill all my forward speed and then the second roll just sucked. I found that the particular blades I was using required almost zero negative pitch and if I got into the pitch too hard it really screwed up the rolls.
When I went to a symmetrical blades, a lot of my problems disappeared and I found that rolling left (always roll downwind) the model tracked great but rolling to the right, the model still wanted to slow down ( and waddle). I put in a pmix, ail to ele, about 8% ( it's different for every model 5-15%) so as I rolled right I get back cyclic. Back cyclic, when the model is inverted, tends to keep the model moving forward and when you program it in, you get the same feed every time and can adjust it to get the model to track like you want. Some models require the same pmix to roll left but require forward cyclic to hold the nose up. Mine never needed that but Dr Ben and I have both run into models that did.
Some guys also have an ail to rudder pmix that gives a stab of rudder as you start the roll to place the nose of the model correctly but this one is a real pain to set up and I would not recommend it for someone that is not VERY familair with a model as you can really screw up everything with this mix unless you know exactly what and why you are doing it.
I use NO elevator at all during a roll, just collective, UNLESS something really screws up and the nose drops and the model heads toward the basement. Then I try to use just enough to keep the model from going into the trees because any more than that and the whole maneuver goes south. Most of the time, if I get a good entry, the model does all the work for me.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
06-02-2005 Over year old.
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

Quote 
I put in a pmix, ail to ele, about 8%


Is this pmix on during your whole flight, if so, does this cause any problems with any other aspects of your flight, or do you have this linked to a particular flight mode or switch.

I'm loving this thread, I have learnt so much in the last week or so.




Tony
06-02-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Mix

I use it in two conditions, the one where I do rolls, and the one where I do cuban eights, rolling stall turns, and the loop with straight roll. I don't think it would hurt but I don't have it turned on anywhere else. Definitely not in hover.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
06-02-2005 Over year old.
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

Thanks Gordie,

Hope you don't mind the questions, there maybe more to come

I'm going to try the pmix at the weekend (weather permitting) & let you know my results.




Tony
06-02-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Dr.Ben
Elite Veteran
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

This will give you a good project for the weekend............................

Most of the corkscrewing that you'll see in rolls can be eliminated by the aforementioned ail>ele phase mixing done in a linear arrangement with the 5-15% being the max value present at full stick deflection.

The problem with a contest model and a contest roll is that the model might be doing one thing right at the start of the roll, but then might change to doing something else when the model gets over on its side or back.

Specifically, it is often necessary to run a multipoint pmix in a LEFT roll that adds a touch of UP ele at the first part of the stick's deflection to raise the nose of the model, and then have the mix transition to adding the often expected DOWN ele for the remainder of the stick's deflection. WHY? Because the roll rate on a contest model is often slow enough that the effect of running a straight linear mix, which is most needed once the model is inverted, often is seen too early in the roll, causing the model to dive in the entry of a left roll. Even for right rolls, it is useful to use the multipoint pmix to delay the up ele command until the model gets further into the roll and thus avoid having the model pitch up too much at the start of the maneuver.

The most effective use of multipoint mixers here demands that the pilot enter the rolls with the same rate of stick deflection, since the length of time that the stick is in a particular area of its range of deflection determines how long the pmix point that corresponds to that area is in effect (read that a few times until it makes sense). I was having trouble with keeping the rate at which I was moving the stick consistent, so I programmed my MZ to pace the ail INPUT (not return back to center) to the point that the roll entry wasn't too fast. With super fast servos and radios, you can pretty much ruin a roll with a poor entry, regardless of the setup, before its even gets going well.

Gordie is entirely correct about the need to get someone else to check your model is it's doing something stupid that you can't resolve. You just can't imagine how much subconscious crap you'll be inputting and thus causing the odd behavior. It's like proofreading your own writing. Absent another qualified pilot, if you are having major problem one day, stop and come back the next and try again. Watch what the model does on the first flight of the next day. That flight will often more clearly represent the true trim status of the model before you have time to again interject bad habits or corrections.

Ben Minor
06-02-2005 Over year old.
 
 
hirobo kc
Heliman
Location: Kearney mo.

hi again, how do you measure your fly bar raito or is it more corect to refer to it as bell/hiller raito. again how would you measure this and what would you recomend a starting point.

thanks again
howard
06-03-2005 Over year old.
 
 
yapjy
Key Veteran
Location: Singapore

3D fins or not?

Well, I used to fly a Vigor with none 3D fins and felt that in crosswinds, the tail do not hold well, especially in hovering.

When I switched to Freya, I started off with the stock 3D fins and found that hovering in crosswinds is better. However, in FFF, the Freya could have track better. Hence, I put stickers onto the horizontal fin to improve tracking in FFF while leaving the vertical fin as a 3D fin.

06-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
plantone
Senior Heliman
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

secret s.Simon

Can you explain more about the ele ail mix which one is master & in what directions ??

Thanks Wayne.nz
06-05-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Gidday Wayne,
The mix is AIL = Master, ELE = Slave.

On my Primary Sylphide it's +10 and +6, on the Secondary Sylphide it's +6 each way.

The Vigor on the other hand, didn't even need it.

It's one of those things that's particular to individual machines and depends on how accurately you've set your phasing ring in particular.

Si

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Simon Lockington
06-05-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
bald eagle
Veteran
Location: detroit michigan

how about motor setup and i mean gear ratios mods done to the
motors in flight mixture control stuff like that viper heads and plugs

thanks jeff
06-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
nighttrain
Senior Heliman
Location: Louisville KY

See Jeff, No one will answer you till after the Natls! And furthermore, all hovering maneuvers done w / an E3 will have to be adjusted down to be fair to the other competitors, maybe 3 points each! Just kiddin! Doug
06-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
nighttrain
Senior Heliman
Location: Louisville KY

Jeff, Good Question. I think most all are 7.91 and pretty evenly split between OS and YS, as seen in BHM. 30%. Some think 7.75 bogs a bit in rolls and is not optimum in summer heat. For anyone who hasn't seen Wayne M.'s rolls, - they look like they were shot out of a rifle!!! We can't all fly or tune like him, but I'd like to know his ratio, if it's not classified. Thanks GM, just trying to save ya some typing. Doug
06-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

Wayne and myself are running stock YS-91 motors using a 7.91 gear ratio.

Dwight
06-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Dr.Ben
Elite Veteran
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Wayne uses the stock 7.9:1. No governor. Throttle curve is more or less set to keep the throttle WFO at all times. He only enters that condition when the model is turned around and coming inbound. YOur rolls will more or less suck if you try to do them with the GV-1 turned on.

Jeff, Doug, before you two guys take out too many equipment chains and knives, recall that the year I won CIII, I did so with a worn YS80, 10-12 year model design X-Cell graphite with no push-pull, and no 601 gyro. In any class but esp C1-CIII, the one who wins will be the one who hits the cones, nails the aeros, and MOST importantly, does both CONSISTENTLY.

Ben Minor
06-10-2005 Over year old.
 
 
13 pages [ <<    <     3      4     ( 5 )     6      7     NEXT    >> ]23227 viewsPOST REPLY
Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC . CanoMod

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C basic settings
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