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Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC . CanoMod

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C basic settings
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

That's what I thought.

I have never used D/R, but I am just starting to get into Sportsman & then in the future F3C & I am followonig this thread closely & picking up some good setup tips.

I have upto now alway's used full throw in all modes & til recently used expo to soften centre stick movements but more recently have been experimenting with servo delay with some success.

Do you think that using servo delay is a cop out to properly setup expo's.





Tony
05-20-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Sorry guys, I've been in the Middle East for the past week, only just got back today.

I totally agree that everyone's setup is different. Certainly at first, Scott's setup felt very different to what I was used to, but now that I'm used to it, I prefer it.

Limit your travel in the different flight modes using AFR, not ATV. I don't use Dual Rates at all. I only use AFR to limit travel and the AFR's EXP function to provide expo features.

I don't bother reducing headspeed before the auto. I don't see the point. But that's just me. I do agree there is probably something to the drag argument, but in my opinion it would be so negligible as to not worry about it. The headspeed will find it's equilibrium very soon after the commencement of the auto anyway.

I wouldn't use servo delay on anything but an MCCPM machien and even then, only on pitch.

Si

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Simon Lockington
05-20-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

Quote 
I wouldn't use servo delay on anything but an MCCPM machien and even then, only on pitch.


Instead of expo. or would you combine servo delay with expo.

Tony
05-20-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Contest

We're leaving for the Birmingham AAA Contest this morning so I'm out of here until Monday.
I EMPHASIZE: THIS IS WHAT I DO, NOT A PERFECT SETUP.
About dual rates:
I use them only to have a little extra cyclic available for flying in a hurricane. I cannot remember the last time I turned them off in a contest. I have turned them off in practice a couple of weeks ago. Wind was 25+ and gusty. The extra cyclic was welcome.
To adjust travel, in the 9Z, use AFRs. The 14MZ is different and I'll talk about that later.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-20-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

You can't really use expo on the pitch channel anyway.

In short, I probalby wouldn't use it at all, but if I had an MCCPM machine, I might use it just on the collective pitch only.

Si

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Simon Lockington
05-20-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Henrik Engert
Veteran
Location: Cedar Park, TX

For us mortals who don't have those fancy radios, is there anything similar to AFR in the Futaba FF8 radio? What's the diff?

-Henrik
05-20-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

On a Super 8 use the EXPO and Dual Rate settings. You'll get the same result.

Si

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Simon Lockington
05-21-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Blades, paddles, weights.

Depending on what model you have and what you want it to do, all of the above have effects on the feel and performance of the model.
F3C models, as a rule, are built to be ultrastable in hover. One of the ways we can do that is to use a very heavy flybar. We usually select a flybar paddle that weighs betweem 35-55 grams with a fairly thick airfoil and forward CG. There are many types that fit that description but the two I am most familiar with are the FunTech carbons and the MA pro II s which can be built between approximately 28- 52 grams (I personally ran 38 grams). I addition we can use flybar weights to tailor the feel of the cyclics to personal preference.
Blades for an FAI model can be either symmetrical or semi-symmetrical and generally weigh between 185 and 245grams and are very "nose heavy." The semis tend to be really fast in straight flight, do nice pitch maneuvers, and do autos pretty well but may have some "issues" when rolling. Symmetricals do everything pretty well but may be rpm sensitive in hover and aggressive in aerobatics. Now remember, all of this is subjective and, EVEN WORSE, all of it is interrelated.
Generally I start with a blade that feels comfortable in a hover at the rpm I select. Since the current schedules are K factored 2 for hovering, you must have a blade that will sit for you. I, then, want a blade that generates good straightline speed and rolls well. Third, I want a blade that I can auto and land even with the blades barely turning. I just described three different sets of blades for one flight so, obviously, it has to be a compromise. To get a good idea of what blade works well, take a look at what the NATs competitors (results in the US and Japan are easy to find) are running and go with one of the top blades. I did an extensive amount of blade testing last year (I borrowed blades from everybody I knew and I have a lot of F3C friends so I had a good selection) and, SURPRISE!!!!!, my choice at the end was the same as nearly everyone else, although we didn't know it was the same until we all showed up at the NATS with the same blades. Notice, I did not make a blade recommendation here as there are SO many good choices and it really is a personal decision.
Wow, I'm tired. More later.
Wayne

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-23-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Vol V

Everyone does basic setup a little differently. I was at the contest in Birmingham last weekend and talked quite a bit with Cliff Hiatt and Wayne Mann. While they disagree on some of the finer points at the ends of the spectrum, they basically agree about most things.
What I say is here my own opinion and it may or may not work for anyone else.
I want a model I can fly day in and day out with just routine maintenance. The XL Pro IIK I fly as my primary model is 4 years old right now and has been crashed once. My backup model is less than a year old and has yet to be crashed. Both of these models have a lot of flights on them and need some maintenance. I am in the process of redoing the collective system on my primary model as it has been in continuous use for two years and it needs the pivot tube replaced and new bearings to tighten it back up since the collective arm has developed a little side to side play. It doesn't seem to have affected the way the model flies but, after I fix it, I may be surprised. It has worn gradually over a long time so I may not notice that performance has dropped off so when I tighten everything up, I may have to readjust my radio a little.
That's one of the major differences between an F3C model and a 3D model. If you build an FAI model, it is worth the time and effort to get everything as good as you can because, hopefully, the model will never hit the ground. Many 3D models hit the ground pretty regularly and are frequently rebuilt so it would not make sense to spend massive amounts of build time in a model that may get rebuilt totally every 6 months or even sooner. 3D guys can rebuild a crashed model overnight and go fly the next day. If I crash an F3C model, it has to come completely apart and every bolt checked to see if they are bent, all parts checked for damage and trueness, and then reassembled back to as close to perfect as I can get. It may take me three weeks to rebuild after a crash. (Longer if crying time is involved.............)
When you fly the same model over a long period of time, you get to know that model really well and can feel when something changes or is not right. HEED THOSE WARNINGS! I had my primary model act funny the other day. It had been flying particularly well and all of a sudden the tail just didn't feel right. I came in to check and as the model transitioned into a hover, it started to pirouette. I was able to get the model down with no damage and found the TR pushrod had fractured right as it came out of the carbon tube so it had started to flex under load while doing aerobatics. It actually broke when I came into a hover to check. Had I ignored the warning, I would have been 300 feet in the air at 80 miles an hour with no TR control. Now I MIGHT have been able to do a pirouetting auto with it but I'm glad I did not have to try.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-24-2005 Over year old.
 
 
bald eagle
Veteran
Location: detroit michigan

dose anybody have any flybar weights on there fly bars and if so how many and how long are the flybars you guys are using
thanks jeff
05-24-2005 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Yes, but it depends so much on:
A) The weight of your blades
B) The weight of your paddles
C) Flybar ratio
D) Length of your flybar

All this stuff really is a product of trial and error. Put some weights on, try it and see what you think. Move the weights in and out and see how it goes.

It can take AGES to come to a setup that works for you.

Si

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Simon Lockington
05-24-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Henrik Engert
Veteran
Location: Cedar Park, TX

How do you figure out:

1) Flybar ratio
2) Cyclic pitch

-Henrik
05-25-2005 Over year old.
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ, USA

Gordie, thank you for doing this. I definitely think there should be a FAI section on here.

My questions are:

1. what is your philosophy on balancing the heli? (nose heavy, level, doesn't matter, etc..)

2. I see the majority of FAI competors wrap the pod/boom in a form-fitting fuselage. I presume this is to provide better resiliancy and predictability in windy conditions and also improve the asthetic end as well?

- how can you obtain those fueslages?... i did check out Hirobo Japan, but short of deciphering Japanese, I didn't find any usefull info.

3. During a FAI competition, what is the maximum wind condition that is considered flyable?

- Dan G. -
05-25-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

My philosophy.............

OK, let's get started.
I balance a model with 3/4 a tank of fuel so that it hangs from the flybar very slightly nose down to start with BUT I make sure the swashplate is level (MA tool that sits on main shaft) and pick the model up into a hover. I actually trim the model fore/aft by adding or removing weight until the model hovers with ZERO elevator trim.
I then transition to FFF with 1/2 tank of fuel and there are several things I can do here, If the model noses over, still with the swashplate level, no trim, I can add horizontal fin area, I can move the fin back on the boom (there are limits ), I can lengthen the flybar, or I can thicken the flybar paddles . If it noses up, I can use a smaller fin (or no fin), move it forward on the boom, use a shorter flybar, or use a less draggy paddle. Now realize, all of this interacts so you may end up using a combination of all these.
I am set on the paddles I want to use because of how I want the model to feel in hover, so I vary flybar length and horizontal fin size for FFF trim. If you see my Pro IIK-Ts, you will notice I have a fairly large horizontal fin and a long flybar. In an ideal situation I want the model to track level at 3/4 throttle just cruising along and have the model track absolutely straight when climbing vertically or descending vertically, like in a rolling stall turn. I personally find that I cannot easily make a correction to a model that will not track vertically. If the model wants to fall over on it's back, its really hard to find and hold a vertical line so I concentrate on adjusting the model until it does.
Now I said I want the swashplate absolutely level fore/aft in all flight conditions and in an ideal situation, I would, but sometimes, I get the model really close and just can't get it perfect so I throw in 4-5 points of trim. It doesn't seem to affect FFF very much and will fix a lot of evils BUT, I only do this AFTER I have optimized everything else I can adjust.
Now, in F3C, we always hover first (about 5-6 minutes) then go do our aerobatics so we start with a full fuel load and burn over half of it in hover which is why we trim the model 3/4 full in hover and 1/2 full in aerobatics, because that's how the model will be in flight. A rear mounted tank really helps here as the model will be very neutral when hovering and get a tiny bit more nose heavy as we progress into aerobatics which seems to make the aerobatics a little more prdictable.
Will talk about fuses later.
Wind, .... I think the FAI wind limit is somewhere around 35 mph which is really a lot. We flew the Team Trails in 2001 (I think, when you get older all of this sorta runs together) in Muncie in a 30mph wind. It was amazing to watch these guys holding the model still in a hurricane, but even then we had some of the best guys landing autos outside the box.
Whew, I'm tired again. Thanks to all the guys that are PMing encouragement. I'm just passing along what I have been taught by some of the very best.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-25-2005 Over year old.
 
 
T.C.
Veteran
Location: Nottingham. England.

GM1,

What a fantastic thread.

I find this information that you are passing on very interesting, are there any books available or is it just this one that you are writing

I also think there should be an F3C section on RR.

Keep the info flowing.





Tony
05-25-2005 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Fuselages

Many of the top F3C flyers are using fuselages on their contest models. Aside from the WOW! factor, the fuses have some distinct advantages but also some disadvantages,
Advantages:
A nice sleek fuse is faster in FFF than a stock pod and boom model and as a result gives MUCH better vertical penetration. The darn things go uphill like a rocket and give you more time to make decisions and corrections. They also present very well to judges, that is, they are easy to see and follow. They tend to be quieter in flight as all the mechanical noises are muffled by the enclosure.
Disadvantages:
They are a pain in the @ss to work on. You have limited access to the mechanics without taking them apart. Many require that you remove the head to get the top off the fuse. Also, the fuse presents a lot more side area than a pod and boom model in the wind and can be a problem to hover when the wind picks up. If you crash a fuse, the expense to repair the model goes WAY up.
I have a Staysee fuse that I plan on using in the future but just haven't had time to get it together with a good set of mechanics. I doubt you will see it this year, maybe next.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-25-2005 Over year old.
 
 
MTP
Heliman
Location: The Deep South, UK

The best thread I have ever read on RR brilliant GM1
05-25-2005 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

Measuring cyclic

This has always seemed obvious to me but several people have asked how to measure cyclic so here's a pretty easy way to do it. Make sure the blades are spun out to flight position, get a flybar lock, and install so the flybar is always perpendicular to the main shaft. MA makes these for all their rotorheads so we have it really easy. Put your pitch gauge on the master blade (you do have a marked master blade don't you?) and use the tx to set the pitch to zero and turn the rotorhead so the blades are fore/aft parallel to the tail boom. Make sure you're at zero pitch and push in and hold full right cyclic. Level the pitch gauge to measue the degrees of right cyclic. Push in and hold full left cyclic and again level the pitch gauge. Hopefully, the two numbers you get should be the same or very nearly so. If the two numbers are off more than a quarter degree you may have another set up issue.
To get elevator cyclic rates, turn the head so the flybar is parallel to the tail boom and repeat. I have done this to a lot of models and have been AMAZED at how many have +/- 4 aileron and +/- 5 elevator. I always try to get both roll cyclic and pitch (elevator) cyclic to be the same so the model seems balanced. I set my contest models at +/- 2 1/2 degrees cyclic in hover and +/- 5 degrees in aerobatics as a starting point and then customize them to each flight condition.
A word of warning: Many guys are running as much as +12 degrees collective and +/-8 degrees cyclic so if you apply full pitch AND full cyclic, you can have as much as 20 degrees going to the blades. This can make both the blades and the rotorhead extremely unhappy and they will make nasty noises to let you know. In some situations the blades will actually stall and control gets really difficult as the head doesn't do what you are telling it to. This is pretty unusual for an F3C model as we rarely run cycic rates high enough to get into this flight regime but it does happen pretty frequently on some sport model.
Everybody has their own "feel" that they are looking for so cyclic rates are pretty much indiividual. Like I said, I run +/- 2 1/2 in hover but many sport flyers would be hard pressed to hover my model as they would think the radio quit, but select a rate you are comfortable with, start around +/- 4 degrees, and make both pitch and roll the same and go out and get used to flying with it. It may take a little while but you will find the cyclic rates will start to come down as you get more n tune with the model. Remember, we are talking about an F3C model, a sport model may require more cyclic to do the stuff a sport flyer wants.
Next
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-26-2005 Over year old.
 
 
KMorgan
Senior Heliman
Location: Bonnie Scotland

F3C Forum

I've emailed Mark asking for a dedicated F3C forum. Mine was the 2nd request. A few more and it may become a reality.

GM1
Quote 
SURPRISE!!!!!, my choice at the end was the same as nearly everyone else, although we didn't know it was the same until we all showed up at the NATS with the same blades.

Notice, I did not make a blade recommendation here as there are SO many good choices and it really is a personal decision.



Oh go on, spill the beans. It would give us numpties a starting point.

K
05-26-2005 Over year old.
 
 
nighttrain
Senior Heliman
Location: Louisville KY

GM1, Bravo, kudos, etc... I seem to recall that Mr. Harkey once said contest go up to 40 mph winds. Thats a huge consideration. When contestants come from all over the country for a weekend contest,- there's gonna be a contest!!! Most modellers go home when the wind goes over 10 mph. What compromises do you FL (high wind) guys make to your models, or ...." how do it do that in 30 mph?" D/R's and expos have been talked about, I guess its back to blades again......
05-26-2005 Over year old.
 
 
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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > F3C basic settings
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