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Esprit Model . Thunder Power RC . Real Raptors

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Aerobatic 3D Contest > Ok, need some help with Autorotations???
 
 
Dazzler
Elite Veteran
Location: Ohio

I'm about to start practicing auto's, and I need to know what to do here. 1st of all I'm going to pracitice up high by hitting the throttle hold, and dropping down the heli b4 reengaging the throttle.

Let say I'm in FF, and I hit throttle hold. do I bring the collective back to
-2, and leave it there until I give it full collective at desired altitude, or should I go to 0 pitch until desired altitude?

I've been practicing on G2, and cant do it unless I'm about 3 feet off the ground. On G2 my throttle hold pitch curve is set to -2 to +12, what am I doing wrong? Thanks, Daz...
07-30-2002 Over year old.
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flyboy
Elite Veteran
Location: California

throttle hold, it's all about timing.

Try gettiing some altitude, put in a hover, lower the collective and then hit the throttle hold. If you hit the hold with 12 degrees of positive pitch and no power to push them you are going to stall the rotors(or loose a lot of stored energy!!) once you have lowered the collective all the way push the elevator forward to enter ff. you can experiment with gradually adding some collective and temporarally hover on the way down. Each time you add collective you loose energy stored in rotor speed. the idea is to wait until you are close to the ground flair the helicopter to converte forward flight to rotor speed while simutaniously adding collective.Experiment a little and you will find less is more and that it is justa timing thang!
flyboy
07-30-2002 Over year old.
 
 
RappyTappy
Elite Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Firstly, practice your approaches in normal mode. Just drop the stick and get used to the descent. You can hit throttle hold, but its a little safer at first to practice the approaches in normal and power will come back on smoothly. Then practice your landings by hovering at 5 feet or so and getting used to playing with the cyclic upon landing.

Once you have practiced those and are confident, or just ready to give it a go, then just put 2 and 2 together and do it. It is a lot easier on a 60 size machine, but a 30 size machine will auto as well. Just remember the inertia of a 30 size machine is much less than that of a 60. Don't flare to high or get behind and have to use full pitch to keep from smacking the ground from flaring too late. Its a fine balance and takes quite a bit of nerve the first time, but they are fun once you get them. Make sure you get some heavier blades as they will make autos a lot easier as well and make sure your mechanics are smooth. Any binding or dragging lessens hang time as well.

Happy Flying,

Chris
Rex 500 A123 Power

Forever Brothers
Mickey Tylo
07-30-2002 Over year old.
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Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Check out my autorotation lesson at www.littlerotors.com/flyinglessons/

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Simon Lockington
07-30-2002 Over year old.
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Dazzler
Elite Veteran
Location: Ohio

Thanks guys, I was able to do 1 auto on G2 without crashing, but havent done it again, I will keep practicing. I went to littlerotors.com, cool site, I will study this and see if practice makes perfect. Thanks again, Daz...
07-31-2002 Over year old.
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SAL
Veteran
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada

I've just started on Auto's aswell, but really shoud've started to along time ago!!! ( I've been flying 2 years now, and am a competent 3D pilot )
My pitch curve is +12 to -12 on a Hirobo Sceadu, and although (thankfully) I never had any problems doing my first auto, or any thereafter, I did notice one thing that possibly the forum can help me with.
When entering throttle hold, and lowering the stick to full neg pitch -12 degrees, the blades seem to lose alot of energy, as opposed to lowering the stick to 1/4 position which would be about -6 degrees, where I find it very easy to flare as the blades have alot of energy in them.
I thought the more neg pitch you put into the auto the faster the blade speed??? Or has it got alot to do with height vs. amount of neg pitch coming down.
Just to add, I am auto'ing from about 50-75 feet up, and as you can imagine when I hit full neg pitch the copter comes down extermly fast, but you guys already knew that.
But boy, auto's are alot of fun, just wish I started earlier
08-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
freestyle
Veteran
Location: Redmond WA USA

moderation is your friend

You do get more head speed with more pitch, at least when you stay within a reasonable range like -1 to -6 or so. -12 is kind of unreasonable though.

During the 'descent' part of an auto, you want to turn the helicopter's potential energy (altitude) into kinetic energy (head speed). When you feed in -12 degrees, you're probably using the rotor to force the heli downward even faster than gravity would by itself - and that takes energy out of the rotor. So don't do that. Just ease in a few degrees of negative... let gravity do all the work... use the rotor to slow the descent. That's how you get energy into the blades. It sounds like you're speeding up the descent, and that's why your head speed is dropping.

It might be possible to use -12 degrees and still turn descent into head speed, but you'd have to be descending extremely fast. You'd want to ease it in gradually, as the heli's descent rate picks up. It would probably take a few seconds at least, and I have a hunch you might reach a terminal velocity, a point at which more negative pitch increases your head speed very little if at all. I haven't tried it though... has anyone? It seems to me there's a sweet spot around -4 or so, any more just brings the heli down faster, not necessarily with more head speed.

If you are descending fast, with tons of negative, you can get that energy back - you turn kinetic energy (from the descent) into rotor energy (head speed) when you flare and raise the collective. But, IMO, it's smoother to just descend gradually. Just use -3 or -4 instead. It gives you plenty of head speed, and it gives you a much more relaxed and controllable descent.

It's good to have lots of pitch range at your disposal - especially if you're planning on getting into aerobatic autos - but you have to use it in moderation. When you hit throttle hold, bring the stick down to about the 'inverted hover' position. Do that a few times to get used to it, then start really high and try raising the stick a bit during the descent, to about -2 or -1, and watch how the heli descends. You'll lose some head speed, but you'll also get a really slow descent. (I usually go back to -4 for the last 35 feet or so, to get the head speed back up - I'm still not sure if that's really necessary, but I'm more comfortable that way.)

When learning autos, it's natural to just drop the collective all the way down. When you've got that hang of that (note: if you're surviving autos with -12, you've got the hang of it), then you're ready to start using the collective kinda like you would if you were doing an engine-on descent. Watch your head speed and rate of descent, watch where the heli is headed, and work the collective as appropriate. You'll get smoother autos this way, and you'll get better at landing on targets.
08-01-2002 Over year old.
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Chris.C
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

Good comments. Just like to add these:

1/. -12 is too much. Your throwing the chopper down. Normally for a 60 size machine, -6 to -7 is enough. The negative pitch was set to regulate the down rate in different wind condition. Sometimes with strong gusty wind, the chopper may not come down at the rate you want so it may miss the landing spot you wish.

2/. I set my pitch curve to a straight line from -7 to +11. This gives you linear collective no matter where your stick is.

Hope this help.

Chris
08-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SAL
Veteran
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada

That is exactly what i wanted to hear !!!

Thanks for the info there Freestyle, your reply now removes all doubt about what I thought works for a auto.
Now assuming that about -6 degrees is optimum for an auto descent, would it be best to set-up my Throttle Hold Pitch Curve to around max neg -8 degrees???
That way their is no chance of going too low with the pitch and slowing the blades down??? ( I guess it also stops the bird from falling too fast, which looks really ugly !!! )
08-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
SAL
Veteran
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada

I think you've just answered my question Chris.

Thank for the help, and I will try -6 maximum on the pitch when descending on the throttle hold. Does this sound like a good starting point on a Sceadu 50 with 600mm SAB blades????
08-01-2002 Over year old.
 
 
freestyle
Veteran
Location: Redmond WA USA

I generally run +/- 10, maybe -9 to +10. I'm of the opinion that 12 degrees on top doesn't really help because by the time you get the stick up that high, the rotor has pretty much stopped - more pitch doesn't add any significant lift, just slows the rotor further and makes boom strikes more likely. Opinions differ, but that's mine.

There's nothing wrong with running -6, but I think you're better off running the same pitch range you use for 3D flying. There's nothing wrong with having -9, -10 or even -12 available, if you work the stick to keep it in the -2 to -6 range. Running different curves in idle-up and throttle hold means learning different curves, different 'sweet spots' where your thumb needs to be... running the same curve means your thumb already knows where to put the stick for a nice controlled descent - right around the invertd hover position. I think that's simpler, so that's what I do.

There is no "one true pitch curve," and no wrong answer. try some different things and do what feels right for you. The key thing is to work the collective control carefully, no matter what your pitch range is.

That takes practice though... I used to run -3 to +10 because bringing the stick all the way down gave me a nice descent rate with a good head speed, I didn't have to think about where my thumb was, and since autos were scary enough I was glad to have one less thing to think about. Once I got comfortable with that, and felt like I could dedicate some brainpower to actually working the collective, I started expanding the pitch curve.

Now I just use the same pitch range for autorotations and aerobatics. (When you get into rolling autos, autorotations are aerobatics ). If you're into 3D, and you want to add rolling autos to your bag of tricks, I think this is the best way to go. Like I said, opinions differ, but that's mine.
08-01-2002 Over year old.
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SAL
Veteran
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada

Once again thanks for all the advice here.

I was trying them the today, and it really is a feel thing, exactly how you guys have explained. Now that I know the proper techinque, and don't slam on full neg -12 pitch in descent, LIKE I USED TO DO, I can auto like a pro. I was auto'ing from over + 200 feet no problem today. And am gonna start some auto aerobatics as soon as my DTDS gears arrive, so I can then control the tail.

I knew you guys would help me, CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!
08-02-2002 Over year old.
 
 
freestyle
Veteran
Location: Redmond WA USA

aero autos

No need to wait for the driven tail...

First of all, do your rolling autos on a windy day, with steady wind. Come in from downwind (so the heli is travelling upwind), and you'll have no trouble with the tail. It will weathervane, staying behind.

Second, try raising your throttle hold position til the engine runs just fast enough to engage the clutch a little bit. This gives you a weak driven tail, and will probably help keep the rotor speed from decaying as much as it would otherwise. This is cheating but it's not a bad way to learn, IMO.

With a 50-size heli you're probably better off than I was - I learned autos, including rolling autos, with a Concept 30. No driven tail, not much reserve. Just be careful about it... plan to bail out of your first few attempts rather than landing them. Don't try to touch down until you're feeling comfortable with the rollout. (That's true whether or not your driven tail setup has arrived.)

Note that I wouldn't trust the high-idle tail drive to work in a backward auto. It did work for me once, in an emergency auto (the engine hiccuped and I thought it was gonna die), but that was with just a little backward speed. Faster backward flight might not work so well. So, use aileron to roll out until you get a proper driven tail. That way the heli is always going nose-first. Save the elevator flip-out for later, when you have a proper driven tail to keep the heli straight during the backward part.
08-02-2002 Over year old.
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Aerobatic 3D Contest > Ok, need some help with Autorotations???
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